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What Could I Expect From This Cross?

8K views 45 replies 11 participants last post by  bethany.cole2013 
#1 ·
I'm still researching bloodlines and such. There is a guy that is pretty local to me that is selling puppies from this cross. Well, the dam's name isn't the one that I will list, however is a full sister to the one I've listed.

The sire:
Bengiman Von Schone Stadt

The dam's full sister:
LABARA VON SCHONE STADT

What could I expect from a cross such as this?
 
#5 ·
It's not as simple as which line produces which traits....it's about the strength of traits and lines, it's about the combining and recombining of traits when two dogs or lines are mixed, it's about whether the two dogs being bred are representative of their line in terms of traits or are they exceptions in their phenotype(outward expression), its about the expotentia effect of the same traits being on both sides of the pedigree, but in one casebeing linebred and in the other case related through phenotype. It's more complex that it seems, but when you tell people this they think you are trying to hoard information from them....not the case at all. It's like explaining a calculus theorem to me....you could try but it really wouldn't make sense to me because I don't understand the interaction of the terms you are using to explain it to me.
It is much easier to analyze an individual dog than project the recombination of genes, traits, and dogs that are in a breeding.
 
#7 ·
The breeder has both parents protection trained and has worked with Matthew Duffy in Indiana and he apparently has bought a couple of puppies from this cross. I would also like to possibly get involved with either some Shutzhund or Personal Protection, but first starting off with titling the dog in some basic obedience such as gaining the CGC, and the Novice title and then moving on slowly. I guess what I'm wanting to know is what could be POSSIBILITIES of good traits and bad traits of this cross. I just don't like very vague statements such as there are good traits and bad traits of a cross such as this lol. I want more specific information on the cross.
 
#24 ·
but first starting off with titling the dog in some basic obedience such as gaining the CGC,

The CGC is not an obedience title. It is not actually a title at all. It is a VERY basic temperament test for the average pet owner. If you want a real temperament test, then shoot for the BH and for obedience titles, look into actual obedience trials and things such as rally.
 
#8 ·
It is very hard for people to look at a pedigree ONLY while knowing nothing about the two dogs as individuals and answer with specifics.

If your goal is maybe doing SchH than I would make that your goal and look into joining a club. Are you in IN?
 
#9 ·
I'm not in IN, I'm in KY but I have been searching for some Shutzhund clubs that I could at least go to monthly or more if I could swing it. There is a protection trainer here fairly locally that when/if I get the pup I'll be taking her to him for an evaluation. I guess I should be more specific in asking what dogs of those bloodlines are normally like? I mean, I've seen threads on here before where people have told of common traits that certain bloodlines posess and that's what I'm asking for these. Not necessarily what this cross might be, but what each individual lines has tendencies to produce?
 
#10 ·
#32 ·
#14 · (Edited)
I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!
 
#16 ·
I understand completely lol. Self proclaimed experts on the internet are what make me ask so many questions to begin with lol. There are lots of people who just "google it" and think they know everything. I welcome your experience with any dogs in the lines and I realize that there are exceptions to everything and not every single dog out of the same lines will be the same. However, it is nice to read what could be possibilities from this cross.
 
#15 ·
Here is what little I can tell you about the pedigree as I am not familiar with some and I am still learning.

I love Cordon! I like Grim z Ps. He brings a good amount of prey. But I don't like that he is coming through Xero. I would be worried about nerve strength and hip conformation with this pedigree. I would not be surprised if the dogs out of this were a bit reactive too. I think there is some potential for some nice dogs. But I am speaking very generally here. There could easily be two terrible examples of their lines let alone German Shepherds being bred. I wouldn't know. I don't know those individual parents, what they produced in the past, what their siblings, aunts, uncles, produced. The sire is not titled and I would venture to say the mother isn't either. I would have to completely trust a breeder to go with a breeding out of two untitled parents no matter what the pedigree. That is just my personal comfort zone. I prefer to support breeders who actively work their dogs and take the time to ensure they are doing everything they can to produce good dogs.

I am only speaking about the dogs I have experience with in my dogs pedigrees. Hopefully someone else will chime in with experience in the lines I am less familiar with.

I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!
Well sitting down and reading well written material and videos from experts has it's place as well. ;)
 
#17 ·
Here is what little I can tell you about the pedigree as I am not familiar with some and I am still learning.

I love Cordon! I like Grim z Ps. He brings a good amount of prey. But I don't like that he is coming through Xero. I would be worried about nerve strength and hip conformation with this pedigree. I would not be surprised if the dogs out of this were a bit reactive too. I think there is some potential for some nice dogs. But I am speaking very generally here. There could easily be two terrible examples of their lines let alone German Shepherds being bred. I wouldn't know. I don't know those individual parents, what they produced in the past, what their siblings, aunts, uncles, produced. The sire is not titled and I would venture to say the mother isn't either. I would have to completely trust a breeder to go with a breeding out of two untitled parents no matter what the pedigree. That is just my personal comfort zone. I prefer to support breeders who actively work their dogs and take the time to ensure they are doing everything they can to produce good dogs.

I am only speaking about the dogs I have experience with in my dogs pedigrees. Hopefully someone else will chime in with experience in the lines I am less familiar with.



Well sitting down and reading well written material and videos from experts has it's place as well. ;)
The sire and dam haven't been titled officially as of yet. This is the first breeding from these two and the breeder is going to give both dogs a break and work on titling them this coming year. They are both trained, however. I've talked with the trainer that has worked with both dogs and he has actually bought two puppies from this litter because he liked the parents so well. He didn't give much of a detailed response other than he really liked them and they were great working dogs with a lot of drive and good grips. They have both been OFA'd with good hip scores and elbow scores. They just haven't been added to their online pedigrees. I've double checked and made sure that there were at the very least health clearances done on both dogs, so I shouldn't have any hip problems out of a puppy from this litter, correct? Or can hip issues still randomly pop up even out of two good scored dogs? I'm aware that genetics only contribute so much to bad hips and overworking young dogs before they're ready are more responsible than anything for bad hips (or at least according to Leerburg). I do appreciate the insight and will consider these things. Thanks!
 
#20 ·
I know some really great breeders in Kentucky with titled and breed surveyed dogs...

It sounds like you would go with something better if it were more available and cheaper for you. You keep making excuses for these dogs and why you are letting this or that slide. You have no idea if this person has bred before, but you trust their opinions on breeding dogs together. I assure you far far far more goes into breeding than just liking the parents....
 
#22 ·
This is an odd combo to me. Not bad, necessarily. But not sure I think there's much to recommend it, either.

This seems to be a similar breeding (same bloodlines, different mom) that was done: Drama Von schwarz hirten

So, the sire's sire was never titled, as far as I know. Eron's mother Hilda was very drivey, very high energy. I have a daughter of her sister Heidi--I understand that Heidi was calmer and had a sweeter personality. Hilda had trouble staying pregnant because she would circle/spin, IIRC.

Throughout the rest of the pedigree are some very good, individual dogs--some very high drive, a number are known for their hardness and aggression. Many of them could produce bad nerves if not bred with care.

So, with two parents and 2 grandparents untitled/untested? -- what will this litter produce? Could be all over the place. Could be very good, could be very bad, could be mediocre and unremarkable, could be fantastic. Impossible to tell--I'd say go see the parents and see them work and ask if you can visit with them when they're not working, too.
 
#23 ·
I have visited with them on multiple occasions. They're really nice family dogs first and foremost. I've also happened to see them work as well.

As far as me wanting to be breeder, yes. But, EVENTUALLY. Not even when this dog is necessarily of breeding age. I want to get involved with the breed and learn from experience. If this puppy happens to be a great working puppy and grows into a well rounded adult with great hip scores then I MAY consider breeding. Then again, I've got a ton of learning to do still and plan on doing the learning by getting involved and the only way for me to do that is to stay within my budget for right now, because honestly if I were to save up for a great quality puppy and one that's parents are breed surveyed, etc etc it'd cost me an arm and a leg and take me forever to save up for that. By the time I would have saved up for a puppy of that caliber, I will have been at the time line that I want to start breeding in and I would have rather had involvement in training and with certain dogs BEFORE I jump in headfirst to breeding. So, not that it's a hurry necessarily, I just prefer to learn from experience and not just sit behind a computer screen and learn strictly from Google and people on here. Not that there is anything wrong with learning from you guys! You guys are great! BUT, I'm really really wanting to get involved with the breed. Plus, I'm not dead dead set on this litter. I may wait and see how the parents do in their trials and then wait for their next litter. The parents are really really nice dogs and several people that I know of have gotten a puppy from this litter and all have had nothing but great things to say about them. I'm from the horse world and I know that a great pedigree on a horse doesn't always equate a great horse. I had an unregistered horse that was absolutely exceptional. I had more offers to buy her and for a lot higher prices than we ever sold our registered show quality stock for. So, I know that there are exceptions to everything and I plan on doing much more research into this before I jump into getting a pup from this litter. I appreciate everyone trying to help and offer their advice.
 
#25 ·
Read what Blackthorn wrote very carefully, because it is right on point. YOU can get a nice pup from this breeding...for sure...but all of the warnings being given are valid and can pop up in this breeding....especially the 4theDawgs comments about Xero z PS.....I agree with those views about that dog good and bad.
 
#28 ·
Akc does not list CGC on papers as a title, but will as of 2013.

Bethany if you have any desire to possibly breed your new dog in the future, I would recommend waiting. There are breeders who will place dogs on a co-own with you, breeders who sell good puppies from titled parents for far less than $1000, and you could always save up for 6 more months.
If you had intimate knowledge of the dogs in the last three generations the lack of titles would not be such an issue. But you don't, and what if he puppy grows up super? Temperament, health check out? As a beginning breeder it is so much easier to start with proven, tested dogs.
 
#30 ·
To check the hip/elbow ratings of the parents you can go to the OFA website and put in either their names or registration numbers.

http://www.offa.org/

When looking at the predictability of how a dog might produce as far as hips you have to look at both the depth (parents, grandparents, etc) and breadth (siblings, aunts, uncles, 1/2 sibling, cousins, etc).

Now when looking at the dogs and possible little, how a dog produces is more involved than just looking at the parents themselves. Yes, I'll see some of the parents, but I have found that I often see the grandparents in a litter more so than the parents themselves. The sire and dam of this litter may be great dogs, but who were their parents? Were they great dogs?
 
#33 ·
I'm still researching bloodlines and such. There is a guy that is pretty local to me that is selling puppies from this cross. Well, the dam's name isn't the one that I will list, however is a full sister to the one I've listed.

The sire:
Bengiman Von Schone Stadt

The dam's full sister:
LABARA VON SCHONE STADT

What could I expect from a cross such as this?
Is this the Schone Stadt breeder or someone else?
 
#36 ·
An hour or two is not that far.

We have people frm Louisville and Lexington, KY come and train with us. (2.5-3 hours away....). Others from Knoxville.

Husband, for good helperwork, goes to ATL (4.5 hours).

No, you need to do more research or you would have come up with more and active working breeders.
 
#40 ·
My last post and this thread and then I will request that it be locked due to no one else providing any relevant information to the original post. My point is, not everyone is ABLE to travel long distances necessarily right now. I'm not saying that I'm not WILLING to travel. I am, but I'm not ABLE to for various personal reasons right now that I won't go into. That's great that you have people from that far willing and able to drive to your club. I'm not able to right now, doesn't mean I won't be able to in the future, so I would appreciate not being hounded and criticized for it right now. I have already said that NOTHING IS SET IN STONE and I haven't committed to getting a pup from this litter. Like I said in my original post, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about bloodlines and such and there isn't any real rush besides my enthusiasm for wanting to get involved in the breed as soon as I possibly can. Now, with that being said I do very much appreciate the people that did offer great and relevant answers. You have been very helpful and that is all I have to say and all I will say at this point.
 
#41 ·
No one is hounding and criticizing you. But, to be able to say a dog can do this or that, etc. you have to be able to train and test. Very simple.

If the time is not right for you, then wait. Wait until you research a bit more and are able to have the time and focus. Meanwhile, learn all that you can.
 
#43 ·
I don't think there has been anything said to you that has been out of line. You are getting into how complicated it gets when researching and buying a puppy. It's simple to say: I want a puppy and to possibly breed. But as you are finding out when you start down a line of questioning when deciding on a breeder, there are a LOT of things that you didn't even realize you had to consider before getting a pup. The reason why it matters if you can afford the time/money/resources to train is because it matters when deciding on a line, litter, or pup. You wouldn't put a high drive top sport prospect with someone that works 80hrs/week and has no time to devote to training. You wouldn't put an independent, slow to mature, tough male with a novice home. So it matters what you are able and willing to do with the dog. With people asking the questions about the dam, sire, breeder, and cross in question, you start to realize all the components to consider when selecting a puppy. I think you've gotten lots of good ideas and questions to ask. This is not criticism - this is what I would ask of ANY breeder or puppy that I was planning to get. Why am I getting this dog, is that dog able to fit my purpose, what has the breeder done to gain my confidence in the venues I wish to participate in, what do the bloodlines and pedigree offer in terms of pursing my goals for this dog, why this breeder, etc.
 
#44 ·
While schutzhund may be the best test for breeding, it is not the only form of titling available. I know there are AKC obedience and agility clubs in Louisville. And one of the biggest show weeks in the country is held there in March. So there are many ways to prove a dog's suitablity for breeding.
 
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