What Could I Expect From This Cross?

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by bethany.cole2013

can hip issues still randomly pop up even out of two good scored dogs?

YES!!

If this were not so, there would be no need to screen for hips--puppies could be "clear by parentage" if HD were as simple as a recessive gene.

Hip dysplasia is polygenic, meaning that its inheritance is very complicated and its expression depends on a lot of factors both genetic and environmental. Good hipped-dogs tend to beget good-hipped dogs, but two OFA Good parents can and do produce dysplastic dogs, while OFA Fair parents can produce OFA Good or better. The mechanism is not well understood and so all we can do is x-ray every single breeding dog, breed only those with a passing grade, and pray.

Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies

It sounds like you would go with something better if it were more available and cheaper for you. You keep making excuses for these dogs and why you are letting this or that slide. You have no idea if this person has bred before, but you trust their opinions on breeding dogs together. I assure you far far far more goes into breeding than just liking the parents....

Yes, what is the hurry? And why is your decision based on money? If you want to be a breeder, you're going to need to put a LOT of research into bloodlines and breeders, take your time, and save up your money for the dog you want, not just the dog you can afford.

[BlackthornGSD]

This is an odd combo to me. Not bad, necessarily. But not sure I think there's much to recommend it, either.

This seems to be a similar breeding (same bloodlines, different mom) that was done: Drama Von schwarz hirten

So, the sire's sire was never titled, as far as I know. Eron's mother Hilda was very drivey, very high energy. I have a daughter of her sister Heidi--I understand that Heidi was calmer and had a sweeter personality. Hilda had trouble staying pregnant because she would circle/spin, IIRC.

Throughout the rest of the pedigree are some very good, individual dogs--some very high drive, a number are known for their hardness and aggression. Many of them could produce bad nerves if not bred with care.

So, with two parents and 2 grandparents untitled/untested? -- what will this litter produce? Could be all over the place. Could be very good, could be very bad, could be mediocre and unremarkable, could be fantastic. Impossible to tell--I'd say go see the parents and see them work and ask if you can visit with them when they're not working, too.

[bethany.cole2013]

Originally Posted by BlackthornGSD

This is an odd combo to me. Not bad, necessarily. But not sure I think there's much to recommend it, either.

This seems to be a similar breeding (same bloodlines, different mom) that was done: Drama Von schwarz hirten

So, the sire's sire was never titled, as far as I know. Eron's mother Hilda was very drivey, very high energy. I have a daughter of her sister Heidi--I understand that Heidi was calmer and had a sweeter personality. Hilda had trouble staying pregnant because she would circle/spin, IIRC.

Throughout the rest of the pedigree are some very good, individual dogs--some very high drive, a number are known for their hardness and aggression. Many of them could produce bad nerves if not bred with care.

So, with two parents and 2 grandparents untitled/untested? -- what will this litter produce? Could be all over the place. Could be very good, could be very bad, could be mediocre and unremarkable, could be fantastic. Impossible to tell--I'd say go see the parents and see them work and ask if you can visit with them when they're not working, too.

I have visited with them on multiple occasions. They're really nice family dogs first and foremost. I've also happened to see them work as well.

As far as me wanting to be breeder, yes. But, EVENTUALLY. Not even when this dog is necessarily of breeding age. I want to get involved with the breed and learn from experience. If this puppy happens to be a great working puppy and grows into a well rounded adult with great hip scores then I MAY consider breeding. Then again, I've got a ton of learning to do still and plan on doing the learning by getting involved and the only way for me to do that is to stay within my budget for right now, because honestly if I were to save up for a great quality puppy and one that's parents are breed surveyed, etc etc it'd cost me an arm and a leg and take me forever to save up for that. By the time I would have saved up for a puppy of that caliber, I will have been at the time line that I want to start breeding in and I would have rather had involvement in training and with certain dogs BEFORE I jump in headfirst to breeding. So, not that it's a hurry necessarily, I just prefer to learn from experience and not just sit behind a computer screen and learn strictly from Google and people on here. Not that there is anything wrong with learning from you guys! You guys are great! BUT, I'm really really wanting to get involved with the breed. Plus, I'm not dead dead set on this litter. I may wait and see how the parents do in their trials and then wait for their next litter. The parents are really really nice dogs and several people that I know of have gotten a puppy from this litter and all have had nothing but great things to say about them. I'm from the horse world and I know that a great pedigree on a horse doesn't always equate a great horse. I had an unregistered horse that was absolutely exceptional. I had more offers to buy her and for a lot higher prices than we ever sold our registered show quality stock for. So, I know that there are exceptions to everything and I plan on doing much more research into this before I jump into getting a pup from this litter. I appreciate everyone trying to help and offer their advice.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by bethany.cole2013

but first starting off with titling the dog in some basic obedience such as gaining the CGC,

The CGC is not an obedience title. It is not actually a title at all. It is a VERY basic temperament test for the average pet owner. If you want a real temperament test, then shoot for the BH and for obedience titles, look into actual obedience trials and things such as rally.

[cliffson1]

Read what Blackthorn wrote very carefully, because it is right on point. YOU can get a nice pup from this breeding...for sure...but all of the warnings being given are valid and can pop up in this breeding....especially the 4theDawgs comments about Xero z PS.....I agree with those views about that dog good and bad.

[bethany.cole2013]

Originally Posted by BlackthornGSD

This is an odd combo to me. Not bad, necessarily. But not sure I think there's much to recommend it, either.

This seems to be a similar breeding (same bloodlines, different mom) that was done: Drama Von schwarz hirten

So, the sire's sire was never titled, as far as I know. Eron's mother Hilda was very drivey, very high energy. I have a daughter of her sister Heidi--I understand that Heidi was calmer and had a sweeter personality. Hilda had trouble staying pregnant because she would circle/spin, IIRC.

Throughout the rest of the pedigree are some very good, individual dogs--some very high drive, a number are known for their hardness and aggression. Many of them could produce bad nerves if not bred with care.

So, with two parents and 2 grandparents untitled/untested? -- what will this litter produce? Could be all over the place. Could be very good, could be very bad, could be mediocre and unremarkable, could be fantastic. Impossible to tell--I'd say go see the parents and see them work and ask if you can visit with them when they're not working, too.

That's actually a littermate to the puppies that they have now. I'm not really sure where the information came from that this was their first litter, because obviously it isn't. The breeder sent me pictures of the parent's pedigree and Xena was for sure the dam that he sent. The dam pedigree that I posted was of Xena's full sister, though. I have been mainly talking with a person that just got one of the puppies and they are the people that have told me this was the parents' first litter and maybe they were mistaken. The breeder hadn't told me either way whether it was their first or last breeding, just that he was planning on titling them this coming year and giving them both a break from breeding. The people I have been talking with have said that their pup is VERY drivey and very much ball driven and that matches exactly what I was told about the rest of the litter that is still available.

Also, as far as CGC goes, if it isn't a title then why does AKC recognize it as a title and list it on the dog's papers? These title things are very confusing to me.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by bethany.cole2013

Also, as far as CGC goes, if it isn't a title then why does AKC recognize it as a title and list it on the dog's papers? These title things are very confusing to me.

I think this just changed--CGC is now considered a title by the AKC, but that didn't happen until recently.

Some folks still think it *shouldn't* be a title, but it is.

[gagsd]

Akc does not list CGC on papers as a title, but will as of 2013.

Bethany if you have any desire to possibly breed your new dog in the future, I would recommend waiting. There are breeders who will place dogs on a co-own with you, breeders who sell good puppies from titled parents for far less than $1000, and you could always save up for 6 more months.
If you had intimate knowledge of the dogs in the last three generations the lack of titles would not be such an issue. But you don't, and what if he puppy grows up super? Temperament, health check out? As a beginning breeder it is so much easier to start with proven, tested dogs.

[qbchottu]

Originally Posted by bethany.cole2013

Kentucky isn't exactly known for it's well rounded and best of the world breeders. I also don't know any breeder in this state that has breed surveyed dogs and titled dogs.

What are you talking about...? Have you done your research??? There are loads of people and clubs in this state that are alive and well in schh! BHOT is breeder handler owned and trained, HOT is handler owned and trained through the dog's titles.
Drache Feld :: german shepherd/schutzhund show dogs, but title. Some HOT/BHOT
Schneiden Fels show dogs, but same thing HOT/BHOT
Vom Vrban Haus HOT, upcoming BHOT
K9 Motivation Working Line working dogs HOT
Vom Starken Hund HOT, national level competition dogs
Index rotts, boerboels, occasional working dog
Vom Huelsman German Shepherds training director at greater cincinatti schh club, HOT his dogs
Those are just the few off the top of my head.

Clubs with people titling/training dogs in schh:
Cedar Hill Working Dog Club
Jeff Lund
Woodburn, KY
270-529-2014
Greater Cincinnati SchH Club
Tom Huelsman
Crittenden, KY
859-485-6959
Kentucky Hundesport Klub
Brandon Wilson
Bowling Green, KY
270-202-9250
Kentucky Ridge Hundesport (KY)
Louise Hindert
513-607-0230
Twin Beech SchH Club
Ronnie Hill
Club meets near Scottsdale KY
615-889-2003
Wildcat Schutzhund Club
Dan Cox
Georgetown, KY
502-863-0769

Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies

I know some really great breeders in Kentucky with titled and breed surveyed dogs...

It sounds like you would go with something better if it were more available and cheaper for you. You keep making excuses for these dogs and why you are letting this or that slide. You have no idea if this person has bred before, but you trust their opinions on breeding dogs together. I assure you far far far more goes into breeding than just liking the parents....

*spot on*

[lhczth]

To check the hip/elbow ratings of the parents you can go to the OFA website and put in either their names or registration numbers.

http://www.offa.org/

When looking at the predictability of how a dog might produce as far as hips you have to look at both the depth (parents, grandparents, etc) and breadth (siblings, aunts, uncles, 1/2 sibling, cousins, etc).

Now when looking at the dogs and possible little, how a dog produces is more involved than just looking at the parents themselves. Yes, I'll see some of the parents, but I have found that I often see the grandparents in a litter more so than the parents themselves. The sire and dam of this litter may be great dogs, but who were their parents? Were they great dogs?