What Could I Expect From This Cross?

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

A wide variety of working traits...some good....some not as desirable.

Yeah, can't you be a bit more specific as to what is "good" and what is "not as desirable"? Drives, hardness, general attitude, trainability, etc.? I know some folks love Czech lines and others don't, citing things like handler aggression or excessive sharpness. I have heard that Czech lines have very good hunt drive and can be rather civil.

I have talked about the WGWL/Czech female I once had. She was gorgeous, hard as nails, social, loved other dogs, and had energy and drive through the roof. Compared to other GSDs I've had, she seemed unable to "cap" her own drive and settle down, even if exercised hard--hard exercise seemed to just warm her up! It was very difficult for me to keep her focus and attention for very long, especially in a new environment with lots of distractions. She was as athletic as any dog I've ever seen, even though she had moderate HD, she never showed a hint of pain or lameness and spent most of her life bouncing on two legs like a kangaroo. I do not know if she is typical of her breeding or not.

[cliffson1]

Sometimes I do,....sometimes I don't. Sometimes I want to see what others think....is that Okay?

[bethany.cole2013]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

Sometimes I do,....sometimes I don't. Sometimes I want to see what others think....is that Okay?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is what have you experienced with dogs of similar breeding? What were they like? I'm all about learning from someone else's experiences and gaining new perspectives.

[cliffson1]

I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!

[4TheDawgies]

Originally Posted by bethany.cole2013

I'm still researching bloodlines and such. There is a guy that is pretty local to me that is selling puppies from this cross. Well, the dam's name isn't the one that I will list, however is a full sister to the one I've listed.

The sire:
Bengiman Von Schone Stadt

The dam's full sister:
LABARA VON SCHONE STADT

What could I expect from a cross such as this?

Here is what little I can tell you about the pedigree as I am not familiar with some and I am still learning.

I love Cordon! I like Grim z Ps. He brings a good amount of prey. But I don't like that he is coming through Xero. I would be worried about nerve strength and hip conformation with this pedigree. I would not be surprised if the dogs out of this were a bit reactive too. I think there is some potential for some nice dogs. But I am speaking very generally here. There could easily be two terrible examples of their lines let alone German Shepherds being bred. I wouldn't know. I don't know those individual parents, what they produced in the past, what their siblings, aunts, uncles, produced. The sire is not titled and I would venture to say the mother isn't either. I would have to completely trust a breeder to go with a breeding out of two untitled parents no matter what the pedigree. That is just my personal comfort zone. I prefer to support breeders who actively work their dogs and take the time to ensure they are doing everything they can to produce good dogs.

I am only speaking about the dogs I have experience with in my dogs pedigrees. Hopefully someone else will chime in with experience in the lines I am less familiar with.

Originally Posted by cliffson1

I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!

Well sitting down and reading well written material and videos from experts has it's place as well.

[bethany.cole2013]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!

I understand completely lol. Self proclaimed experts on the internet are what make me ask so many questions to begin with lol. There are lots of people who just "google it" and think they know everything. I welcome your experience with any dogs in the lines and I realize that there are exceptions to everything and not every single dog out of the same lines will be the same. However, it is nice to read what could be possibilities from this cross.

[bethany.cole2013]

Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies

Here is what little I can tell you about the pedigree as I am not familiar with some and I am still learning.

I love Cordon! I like Grim z Ps. He brings a good amount of prey. But I don't like that he is coming through Xero. I would be worried about nerve strength and hip conformation with this pedigree. I would not be surprised if the dogs out of this were a bit reactive too. I think there is some potential for some nice dogs. But I am speaking very generally here. There could easily be two terrible examples of their lines let alone German Shepherds being bred. I wouldn't know. I don't know those individual parents, what they produced in the past, what their siblings, aunts, uncles, produced. The sire is not titled and I would venture to say the mother isn't either. I would have to completely trust a breeder to go with a breeding out of two untitled parents no matter what the pedigree. That is just my personal comfort zone. I prefer to support breeders who actively work their dogs and take the time to ensure they are doing everything they can to produce good dogs.

I am only speaking about the dogs I have experience with in my dogs pedigrees. Hopefully someone else will chime in with experience in the lines I am less familiar with.



Well sitting down and reading well written material and videos from experts has it's place as well.

The sire and dam haven't been titled officially as of yet. This is the first breeding from these two and the breeder is going to give both dogs a break and work on titling them this coming year. They are both trained, however. I've talked with the trainer that has worked with both dogs and he has actually bought two puppies from this litter because he liked the parents so well. He didn't give much of a detailed response other than he really liked them and they were great working dogs with a lot of drive and good grips. They have both been OFA'd with good hip scores and elbow scores. They just haven't been added to their online pedigrees. I've double checked and made sure that there were at the very least health clearances done on both dogs, so I shouldn't have any hip problems out of a puppy from this litter, correct? Or can hip issues still randomly pop up even out of two good scored dogs? I'm aware that genetics only contribute so much to bad hips and overworking young dogs before they're ready are more responsible than anything for bad hips (or at least according to Leerburg). I do appreciate the insight and will consider these things. Thanks!

[4TheDawgies]

Originally Posted by bethany.cole2013

The sire and dam haven't been titled officially as of yet. This is the first breeding from these two and the breeder is going to give both dogs a break and work on titling them this coming year. They are both trained, however. I've talked with the trainer that has worked with both dogs and he has actually bought two puppies from this litter because he liked the parents so well. He didn't give much of a detailed response other than he really liked them and they were great working dogs with a lot of drive and good grips. They have both been OFA'd with good hip scores and elbow scores. They just haven't been added to their online pedigrees. I've double checked and made sure that there were at the very least health clearances done on both dogs, so I shouldn't have any hip problems out of a puppy from this litter, correct? Or can hip issues still randomly pop up even out of two good scored dogs? I'm aware that genetics only contribute so much to bad hips and overworking young dogs before they're ready are more responsible than anything for bad hips (or at least according to Leerburg). I do appreciate the insight and will consider these things. Thanks!

Is this the breeders first time titling dogs? Why is the breeding being done before titling? Is this an experiment breeding to see if the dog produces before they title it? What sort of background do they have in dogs? Have they bred any other litters? Why buy from this litter and not a litter with parents who are already titled, breed surveyed?

I guess my question for you is, why are you asking about this litter specifically? What turned you on to this litter?

The trainer working with the dogs, do you respect his/her opinion? Are they knowledgeable about bloodlines, working drives, temperaments, breeding practices? Why is he buying two dogs at once? Most people buying dogs to do any sort of work buys one to focus on since litter mates can be hard. Unless he is just buying them as a pet. We don't know how much research this trainer put into the idea.

Two parents having OFA good hips does not indicate puppies with good hips. It goes much much much deeper than that. That is why I mentioned earlier I would actually be concerned about hips. If someone is just breeding lines together willy nilly with no attention paid to the genetics behind those dogs, you can create a pretty big problem quickly.

[bethany.cole2013]

Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies

Is this the breeders first time titling dogs? Why is the breeding being done before titling? Is this an experiment breeding to see if the dog produces before they title it? What sort of background do they have in dogs? Have they bred any other litters? Why buy from this litter and not a litter with parents who are already titled, breed surveyed?

I guess my question for you is, why are you asking about this litter specifically? What turned you on to this litter?

The trainer working with the dogs, do you respect his/her opinion? Are they knowledgeable about bloodlines, working drives, temperaments, breeding practices? Why is he buying two dogs at once? Most people buying dogs to do any sort of work buys one to focus on since litter mates can be hard. Unless he is just buying them as a pet. We don't know how much research this trainer put into the idea.

Two parents having OFA good hips does not indicate puppies with good hips. It goes much much much deeper than that. That is why I mentioned earlier I would actually be concerned about hips. If someone is just breeding lines together willy nilly with no attention paid to the genetics behind those dogs, you can create a pretty big problem quickly.

This would be my first actual working dog that I would be having trained and going down this adventure with. I don't necessarily plan on using this dog for breeding later on in life, so if it isn't breed worthy, then that's okay with me. I have no idea why the trainer bought two puppies at once. I honestly wouldn't do it myself, but obviously he's more knowledgeable than I am. I don't know if this is the breeder's first time breeding dogs or not, but this is honestly the best quality of working dog that I can afford right now and honestly the best quality locally in my state, period. Kentucky isn't exactly known for it's well rounded and best of the world breeders. I also don't know any breeder in this state that has breed surveyed dogs and titled dogs. I think the purpose in breeding this litter was to see what type of puppies that the dogs produced. I've watched the parents work and they're of pretty good quality. They're also very good family dogs. They've been pets and family companions first and foremost and have also been working on their training. I've also been looking for a solid black pup with at least decent Euro type lines. Also, if it doesn't turn out to be a good working prospect, I'll be happy with a drivey pet. I know you shouldn't select on color alone and I'm not just solely considering these pups because they are black. I honestly like both parents and their temperaments. I haven't made any firm decisions as of yet, so nothing is set in stone as of right now. I'm more trying to get a feel for how these lines may act and then go from there. I know that I remember seeing that some of the dogs on the dam's dam side there were several dogs that had pretty good SV hip ratings. I'm also fairly certain that the parents were both imports, although don't hold me to that. There are still some questions that need to be asked (asked to the breeder). I've visited with them (parents, puppies and breeder) several times already. The parents are raised as family dogs that are kept inside first and then they are working dogs second. A lot of people that I have talked with in my area have said that Matthew Duffy is a pretty well respected working dog trainer in Indiana, so I do respect his opinion on the parents. After all, he has personally worked with each dog individually and knows them quite well.

[4TheDawgies]

I know some really great breeders in Kentucky with titled and breed surveyed dogs...

It sounds like you would go with something better if it were more available and cheaper for you. You keep making excuses for these dogs and why you are letting this or that slide. You have no idea if this person has bred before, but you trust their opinions on breeding dogs together. I assure you far far far more goes into breeding than just liking the parents....