Input on this Pedigree, please?

[intriGSD]

I've lightly researched over the last 5 years and got serious about purchasing a Working Line GSD about 18 mths ago. Loads of training and selection research in the last year. Now this is very time sensitive as I have been debating for too long on this litter and need to choose or choose not to choose.

This will be my first Working Line GSD and I know that I will have to gain the experience to be able to be where I currently dream of, . But I still would like a solid pup to start with. German lines, DDR, possibly Czech, I'm open as long as I get a great dog to start.

Can anyone help me on this pedigree and offer your thoughts and opinions? Also open to breeder suggestions. This litter suffered from Parvo, a male was lost, but the next potential male pick (all black and listed as m1) was less effected and is closer to normal if not normal weight.

Litter: Dartagnan and Kafi Litter 3

Sire: New Page 0

Dam: New Page 0

Thank you for your help!

[bocron]

This would not be considered a traditional "working line" pedigree IMHO. The sire's pedigree is kind of a mish mosh of lines, some show lines, some North American and a couple of working line dogs. I see no working titles until the 3rd generation and that is on a West German Showline dog.
The dams lines are pretty much a mix as well, I see a bit of everything in there, a bit more working and Czech but still not what one would consider cohesive.
Where are you located? Are you planning on pursuing Schutzhund for sport purposes or are you looking for a personal protection dog? There are quite a few great breeders that I can think of off the top of my head and I'm sure others can as well, we just need to know a bit more about you, where you are, your prior experience and what you hope to do.

[cliffson1]

There is no way to project uniform traits from this breeding. I like the breeding of the dam much more than the sire in terms of understanding this breeding. Could be some very good dogs come from this breeding, but also high probability of a lot of unforeseen traits popping up.

[carmspack]

this is not the working line that you think or hope it to be, not by pedigree and in my opinion not by breeder's aim or intent .

investigate -- ask the questions , you want working ask them why and what makes these dogs working candidates .
They should have some answers because

This is a repeat litter.

view their 2011 litter together

view their 2007 litter together

and then there is the current 2012 litter and if you look on their web site there is a possibilty that this same combination will be done in 2013 IF

because "
we are going to take a break in 2013,
we'd like to finish/start a few other projects, and after 15 years, need to take a breather!
so we will only do 2 or 3 of the litters listed below"

some kennels would call that ramping up , not taking a breather .
I see no evidence of dogs going to work or sport .

with the raison d'etre - the reason for being stated as - "We have dedicated much time, effort, and passion to this enterprise,
for the pleasure of it, and to be able to offer impressive dogs at affordable prices

formulate your own ideas

[lhczth]

I, personally, would keep looking. I think you can find something more to your liking with more predictable results elsewhere.

[intriGSD]

Originally Posted by bocron

Where are you located? Are you planning on pursuing Schutzhund for sport purposes or are you looking for a personal protection dog? ... we just need to know a bit more about you, where you are, your prior experience and what you hope to do.

I am located in the Dakotas and travel back and forth from there and Colorado. My experience is only in obedience training with dogs I've had all my life, no competitive/sport experience. This pup is my entrance into that world. He and I will definitely be learning together, but I have definitely equipped myself properly with in depth research in current training methods. I'd never begin without sound knowledge.

I've relaxed my high expectations a bit and would be happy with a sound dog with the capabilities to train with me to new levels I've not reached yet. Down the line I will most definitely be looking for much higher levels. I'm just staying realistic with my own abilities.

[intriGSD]

Originally Posted by carmspack

this is not the working line that you think or hope it to be, not by pedigree and in my opinion not by breeder's aim or intent .

investigate -- ask the questions..

I definitely understand that this is not a $2000/pup litter coming from a distinguished Police K9/training outfit. I was more drawn to the litter because of the Dam, Kafi, and her imported Sire/pedigree. I have been very honest about my desires/expectations/wants with the breeder from the beginning and it does seem to match what you say about the breeder's aim or intent. Their mindset does not entirely match my high level of working dog ideas, but they do believe this match can and has produced high quality dogs with working capabilities. I'm knowledgeable enough to recognize that I won't be purchasing a professional level working line pup from this breeder.

On the other hand my research has led me to the other breeder I listed, Haus Gill. Those pups are quite impressive to me and look like much more fitting dogs for competition and high levels of protection.

My thinking is in the investment and my own abilities. I am committed to this and have taken the steps to prepare, but am left with a feeling of "this is my first attempt and I need to be reasonable with my potential". I want a solid dog that can reach much higher levels than the everyday pooch sitting in the back yard.

I have a deposit on the 2012 litter and have previously asked about future litters from this match. The breeder has stated they are reluctantly considering a 2013 attempt and if they do it is most definitely the last. This (2012) is Kafi's last or next-to-last litter.

Do you at all believe that this pedigree can produce a pup in line to learn with me at my low level of experience (training knowledge not yet qualifying as experience)? Maybe, possibly, being able to reach lower levels of protection?

I am to evaluate the litter tomorrow. The price, proximity, and my timeline has allowed me to lower my expectations from wanting to jump right into the deep end of the working line pool. Haus Gill looks to run my budget into the mid $2k's and this litter I'm into now is a little less than half that.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by intriGSD

I definitely understand that this is not a $2000/pup litter coming from a distinguished Police K9/training outfit.

... Do you at all believe that this pedigree can produce a pup in line to learn with me at my low level of experience (training knowledge not yet qualifying as experience)? Maybe, possibly, being able to reach lower levels of protection?

Not a pedigree expert here, but if you are serious about the work, there is really no such thing as "lower levels" of protection. Either the dog will protect you or it won't. If all you want is a barking dog to deter people, then yes, you could probably pick up any dog from a shelter to do that. But if you want to have any success in the work, you want a pup from a pedigree with PROVEN working ability, and you'll need to select your pup wisely.

Haus Gill looks to run my budget into the mid $2k's and this litter I'm into now is a little less than half that.

IMO, it's a mistake to make price an issue. Pick a breeder whose program is proven, and ask them if they think one of their pups would meet your needs. If so, then price should be no object (within reason). This is an animal you will spend 10-15 years with, and as long as you're spending money, you might as well get what you want... if you spend $500 and the dog turns out to be a failure in everything you want to do with it, you won't be happy and neither will the dog. If you spend $2500 and the dog turns out to be everything you had hoped, will you miss the extra money you spent?

I know it's a lot of money, believe me--if I want a dog, I have to scrimp and save for it. But it costs just as much to feed and care for a $2500 pup as it does for a $500 pup. You want the RIGHT pup. Not saying you won't find a good one for less money, just saying that more hinges on the breeder, their dogs, and their goals than it does on how much money you spend.

Of course, there is always the chance that you will spend a lot of money and the pup doesn't turn out to be a good fit. But if you've selected your breeder carefully, they should give you help and support, and in the end, will be willing to take the dog back and place it in a more appropriate home.

As a beginner, you want to tip the odds for success in your favor as much as possible. You and the dog will be learning together, but if the dog has what it takes, the learning will be fun and rewarding. If the pup is not into what you want to do, you will still learn a lot, but the learning may encompass more frustration and heartache than fun.

[Capone22]

I think you could get a more qualified working line pup for around 1500. I'd skip that breeder all together. Jmo


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[Ace952]

Sounds like u have your mind made up. Good luck.