Help me find the right GSD

[Tom888]

Originally Posted by carmspack

is there something wrong with my math? 250 Euros converts to around $320 Canadian funds which is more or less equal to the US dollar these days. You think that is a lot of money ... for any dog? We had a forum member introduce his new pup , 8 weeks I believe , and his price was $4,000.

I never said that. What I am trying to say is an average person in the capitol earns about Eur 500/mth and an avg. person outside of capitol/western slovakia about 300/mth which is about the national minimum wage. (average person meaning person from lower social class). They are not going to buy dogs for thousands of euros. I am also coming from that background, I have an idea about what such an income is enough for and understand the attitude. And even though I would give more money for a good dog than an average Slovak, because of this background I'm definitely not talking about thousands of euros either.
Now... breeders producing puppies for the Slovakian market can't sell their dog for such amounts, no one would/could buy them. Neither would I.

This also answers your question

Originally Posted by carmspack

Why not locate a breeder in the UK?

[carmspack]

so then are you saying there are breeders exploiting the foreign markets -- huge mark up -- just go to the pedigree data base and it seems as if the majority of advertisers in the classifieds are Czech/ Slovak dogs . Who would be left to breed for the Slovakian market ?

why not buy from a British breeder with essentially the same genetics?

[Sunflowers]

Originally Posted by carmspack

why not buy from a British breeder with essentially the same genetics?

Because he wants to pay Slovakian prices

[Tom888]

Originally Posted by carmspack

so then are you saying there are breeders exploiting the foreign markets -- huge mark up -- just go to the pedigree data base and it seems as if the majority of advertisers in the classifieds are Czech/ Slovak dogs . Who would be left to breed for the Slovakian market ?

why not buy from a British breeder with essentially the same genetics?

Not exactly again but this is going quite off topic

Basically sellers are always exploiting buyers and buyers are always exploiting sellers, this creates an equilibrium called the current price. And there are segments of these markets that can become separated from each other. There are people who for some reason don't produce for export. They might not want the hassle, lack skills (language, organisational or IT), be concerned about the puppies transported as cargo (not too many of the cocerned ones though imo ) or have other reasons. This produce a local market with local prices and sometimes local quality (better or worse than avg.) as the interaction between this and other segments of the market is limited.

Someone who sells a pup for $10000 (not misleading the buyer!!) is exploiting the market and not the buyer, the equlibrium is at that price on that market segment. Someone buying the same dog on a different market segment for £250 is not exploiting the breeder but the market, there is simply equilibrium at that price on that market segment.

The concept of arbitrage is based on these facts too (although most market are too effective to make money this way... hmm... thinking about it now, the GSD market could be a good place for arbitrage )

To be honest I do not like how the system, capitalism and markets work... but one thing is for sure: you have to play according to its rules whether you want or not. It's not sellers/buyers failure but a system fault...

[GSDElsa]

If you can find someone selling dogs for that (as you can in the US) and you are comfortable with it then go for it.

Poeple selling dogs for $4000 are most definitely exploiting buyers in my opinion. But $1500 or there abouts most definitely not (then again, a lot send there dogs other countries for $20K worth of training and they need to make money back somehow). It is NOT cheap to get all the titles, breed surveys, pay for the costs associated with welping and breeding, etc.....in any country.

[Tom888]

Originally Posted by GSDElsa

If you can find someone selling dogs for that (as you can in the US) and you are comfortable with it then go for it.

People selling dogs for $4000 are most definitely exploiting buyers in my opinion. But $1500 or there abouts most definitely not (then again, a lot send there dogs other countries for $20K worth of training and they need to make money back somehow). It is NOT cheap to get all the titles, breed surveys, pay for the costs associated with welping and breeding, etc.....in any country.

Well, maybe saying "they try to" would be right. It is always about the option to buy the one for $1500. If there is such an option then buyers will go that way. If someone buys a dog for 4k without checking if he can buy the same quality for 1k... pardon me but he deserves it. He would have needed to put in 1/10 of the effort I'm putting in, that's arrogance towards the market that never pays off.

Also your point of view logically implies that I am exploiting the breeders too then, right? Well I just found a breeder who sells dogs worth definitelly more than Eur 1000 for Eur 2-300. Why? He breeds for pleasure and for the breed's benefit, for some sort of legacy. He's a pensionist now and very responsible breeder with good bloodline who would do what he does even for free but he cannot keep all the pups. It's a pleasure for me considering buying from him helping him doing what he's doing and for him it's a pleasure too. I don't see how that is exploiting him, it's his price and I know he has the skills to go higher in price, it's just not the goal anymore.

This also is guarantee of quality, isn't it a paradox: the cheaper the better?

[Sunflowers]

Originally Posted by Tom888

To be honest I do not like how the system, capitalism and markets work... but one thing is for sure: you have to play according to its rules whether you want or not. It's not sellers/buyers failure but a system fault...

Well... you could always move to Cuba

[carmspack]

This "basically sellers are always exploiting buyers and buyers are always exploiting sellers, this creates an equilibrium called the current price" is totally cynical and most definitely not how I view the people I deal with - in any transaction. Ever.

so this part of the discussion on the economics paints a picture of brokers going around to this disadvantaged group of breeders , paying them a pittance, doing some "stuff" or not, with what they have scooped and then re-selling for big profit to a hungry US (foreign) market which is in the believe that Czech or Slovak dogs have some immunity to the ills of the breed - which they do not .

[Tom888]

Originally Posted by Sunflowers

Well... you could always move to Cuba

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"

Churchill

Have to agree and the same is most likely true about capitalism. I believe I understand it at least better than average and I see it faulty by design, just take a look at its 19th century's pure form... but so far it indeed might the best option. My opinion is that we should find a new system, something that has not failed yet (not like communism or similar BS that should remain in the trashbin of history). Well this will not happen without a painful collapse, another system failing, this time capitalism so I don't really know what to wish for, whats the least worst..

[Tom888]

Originally Posted by carmspack

This "basically sellers are always exploiting buyers and buyers are always exploiting sellers, this creates an equilibrium called the current price" is totally cynical and most definitely not how I view the people I deal with - in any transaction. Ever.

so this part of the discussion on the economics paints a picture of brokers going around to this disadvantaged group of breeders , paying them a pittance, doing some "stuff" or not, with what they have scooped and then re-selling for big profit to a hungry US (foreign) market which is in the believe that Czech or Slovak dogs have some immunity to the ills of the breed - which they do not .

It is cynical... but this is how our world works, I wish it would be a different way...

The part about the brokers: from what I've seen here so far I guess most of the exported dogs are sold without brokers being involved but indeed I can see the opportunity for middlemen to arbitrageing the s$%^t out of both the sellers and the buyers. Funny thing is, from a systems point of view they are the ones who make the market effective, which is again unbelieveably cynical.

I did not invent this system nor do I like it.