Two dogs I really really like... wondering what would their offspring produce

[robk]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

More drive than I would like to see.......those lines are starting to bottleneck. Where would you breed the offspring of this breeding? Most out crosses would have problems absorbing the drive base o these pups. Just an observation.

This is an interesting concept to ponder. You don't think the drive would moderate in the next generation with an outcrossing to a very stable medium drive partner?

[vom Eisenherz]

Originally Posted by robk

This is an interesting concept to ponder. You don't think the drive would moderate in the next generation with an outcrossing to a very stable medium drive partner?

Not necessarily. Genes don't always work like that. I have a bitch whose grandpups are almost exactly like her pups...some genes are more prepotent than others. You could also end up with "wildcards" in a litter to an outcross like that. You could get medium drive, iffy nerves, high aggression, or any combination. I prefer to breed balance whenever possible for that reason- less chance of wildcards if the parents are "type to type" breeding. I don't care what lines they are, but I want similar types that complement each other.

[Freestep]

Just curious, what type of breeding would the pedigree gurus suggest with either of these dogs, to balance the drive and solidify the nerve?

[BlackthornGSD]

The sire--I wouldn't want to add any more Timmy/Troll) or Mink or even Orry. I'd also want to try to avoid adding more Fado(Harro). So, with that said, I've just eliminated almost all of the top sport names.

Look at his linebreeding and the backmassing:

8,6,6 - 7,8,8,7 Greif zum Lahntal
7 - 6,7,7,8,6..................................... in Afra vom Stoppenberger Land
8,8 - 8,8......................................... in V Racker vom Itztal

So where are you going to go with this breeding? It's either go back to more of the same or look hard for new lines--Czech (the ones that haven't been bred to Tom or Yoschy bloodlines), or some of the lesser known German working lines -- maybe Vox vd Kine (which still brings in Troll) or Sid vh Pixner (brings in Mink) or a dog like Ike v Donauvorstadt (who still goes back to Mink) who brings in some major non-Fero bloodlines as well as old herding bloodlines.

Or you find a counterbalancing dog with similar bloodlines--which can be hard to do and may not work. Or you breed back to a similar dog from similar bloodlines and get some great dogs, some odd ones, some outliers.

It weird, the more pedigrees you study, the more you realize how little diversity there is within a breed (by definition--that's what a dog breed is)--particularly within the subpools within the breed.

I really like the female's pedigree, but she's heavily back-massed on Grief, who was known for his sharpness:

• 7,7 - 6,8,7,7..................................... in V-INT CH Greif zum Lahntal
• 8,8 - 7,8,8....................................... in V Jago von den Jungen Hansen
• 8,8 - 7,8,8....................................... in SG Cora zum Lahntal

I'd probably look to take her back to a dog who carries Chicco vd Fasanerie or another dog who goes back to Ilja or maybe some Maneiche bloodlines--watching the amount of Greif behind the stud dog.



She's also only got one line back to Fero, so that opens up a lot of the Fero bloodlines--but I'd prefer to avoid going back to any more Yoschy/Troll, and I'd avoid Troll Koerbelbach and no more Verwin to increase diversity and avoid quadrupling up on those traits she's already really strong in.

[cliffson1]

@ blackthorn

[BlackthornGSD]

Thanks Cliff.

I really do like the female's pedigree--and it was an interesting exercise to think about what I would look for in a stud dog on paper--and then, of course, you have to make sure the stud dog matches the female in front of you in terms of being a complementary match as far as temperament, health, drives, and conformation.