Showline/Workingline crosses?

[Vandal]

I don't think softness is coming from the show side in particular. I have seen soft dogs from all lines. I have also seen and trained show line dogs who were simply TOO "hard". Where normal corrections had no impact. Many wanted to use the term "stubborn" to describe them. I don't like that term and always look for other reasons for behavior. People are stubborn, dogs are not, they have other reasons for not complying. These dogs required a harder correction to get thru to them but when it did, they would almost shut down. Weird combination that caused me to dread training dogs from show lines when people asked me to. It was a case where people could not pay me to do it , even though I am a professional dog trainer. I am not kidding, that is how unpleasant those dogs were to train.

I also saw this behavior coming thru some of the Bungalow dogs and when this was discussed on another list, there was a common dog pointed out, who is behind many show line dogs and found in the Bungalow dogs as well. Sam Weinerau. I have no idea if he is the source, I am always skeptical when one dog, ( one time in the pedigree), is blamed, but who knows. I just know that the behavior of those dogs is not something I thought of as desirable , at all, and that includes the working lines who were like this.


I think sometimes we may be seeing it in the show dogs who seem to almost crawl next to their handlers on the heeling before the "attack" out of the blind. Many want to blame the bad training or say the dogs were being abused in some way. I recognize it as something else...meaning, what I just talked about above.

[robinhuerta]

The two WL females that I have chosen to cross with...have slightly different "handler" responses.
Izzy is *handler sensitive*.....sensitive not soft. She is slightly more biddable than her 1/2 sister. She can take any correction from the handler without falling apart....but she is ALSO quick to respond to the correction.

Noche is only *slightly/handler sensitive*. She is more apt to be corrected harder, and she has NO softness what so ever. She takes a little longer to respond to a correction...as the correction must be given stronger, when she is in drive.

BOTH females are extremely nice and balanced. Both females have very good, strong nerves and are sound.....the only differences are their "personal characters". Neither females have any sensitivities to environmental stimuli.
*One of my favorite things about them.....their on & off abilities.*
I cannot live with dogs that do not have that ability, and I have no desire to produce dogs that do not have that ability.

[Mrs.K]

I think sometimes we may be seeing it in the show dogs who seem to almost crawl next to their handlers on the heeling before the "attack" out of the blind. Many want to blame the bad training or say the dogs were being abused in some way. I recognize it as something else...meaning, what I just talked about above.

I've never seen that crawling as abuse or bad training. It's more like a stalking thing. If we are talking about the same thing.

[robinhuerta]

Anne....Do you know how many WL dogs I watched "slink" down the field at the Schutzhund Nationals (about 4 years ago/when my husband was one of the helpers for the event)......almost "all" of them.
That "pose" is not just a SL dog thing......I see it all the time at most clubs we visit.

Creeping, crawling or stalking......one must "know" the dog & training, before an absolute judgement call is made...JMO

[Vandal]

Robin,
Since you can only seem to pick out what I say about show lines, even though I talk just as much about working line dogs, perhaps you should just ignore my posts. No "absolute judgement" was made my me but you continue to take it all just a little too personal.

[Liesje]

enlighten me
"Crawling"

[robinhuerta]

You took my post "personal"....not the other way around.
I simply made a statement that I have watched/seen that "pose" at National events too, that primarily consisted of WL dogs.
I wasn't dissagreeing or agreeing....simply giving an observation and comment.

I was simply "adding" to the thread.......my mistake.

*THIS is why I almost never respond to these types of threads.....carry on...I'm done.*
BTW...since I have both lineages...I don't find one better than the other...I think there is good and crap in both.

[martemchik]

Robin! Before you go!

Is there any reason in particular you chose to bring in female WL rather than a male WL to breed to one of your females? So like...would a male from that litter brought the same to your lines or would it have been different and that's why you went with a female?

[carmspack]

that softness can also be seen in the dog who is afraid to make a mistake - I have seen it hundreds of times both while competing in obedience and later while apprenticing in sanction matches as a potential judge (also as ring stewart). People can gain a lot by hanging around and watching others train and compete , don't just do your event and then head for the car . I saw many dogs almost tip toe on their nails , be tentative . When the handler said a firm SIT the dog the dogs head would sink in between the shoulders and the dog would look away , nose flick. The dog was okay dokey when it was all chirpy baby talk though . Oddly the kennel , which happens to be high rated american show states temperament is a priority.

In order to be a good working dog , or a good dog , working, the dog must be RESILIENT
bounce back , be forgiving --

[cliffson1]

Working/show crosses are tricky!