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Old 10-20-2012, 02:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Norbo and Dargo are a wonderful source of solid nerve and good drives, but not extreme drives. Excellent working aptitudes come from both. PM me for more info cause too much detail hurts some members eyes.
Can I have a copy of this PM too, please? Details never hurt my eyes much.
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Can I have a copy of this PM too, please? Details never hurt my eyes much.

Me too please I really want to learn!
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
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So instead of pm'ing everyone, how bout sharing it publicly? Hurt eyes is a good thing....and those that don't want to read it can keep their blinders on!
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Old 10-20-2012, 06:43 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I have a multitude of questions and some things I would like to discuss... but I just worked a 14 hour day after a 67 hour work week.... so, with my only day off being tomorrow - once the dogs are worked and played with then I will compile my public PM (if Cliff wouldn't mind since he has so many fans! ) and post.

Anyone else with questions, please feel free to jump in... mine are specific to these lines.. but feel free to jump in!
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Old 10-20-2012, 07:56 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I am totally a Cliff fan - whatever he posts is GOLDEN.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:11 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Okay, so this is a long time coming.. lol.. but I have been working anywhere from 60-90 hours per week... so... lol.

A few things.. kinda observations and questions rolled into one. I am not sure what I really want to ask or know at this point so I guess my random thoughts are going to be thrown out there and take from it what you will, correct me where I need it and help me along the way to form some sort of coherent thought please.

The one Xant/Puci daughter that I know VERY well (both in a working and home atmosphere) is quite confident. She is good with other dogs and excellent with people. She is a dog who will work for you if you have a toy or ball just because she wants to work. She will work just as well for praise as she will for the reward/toy/ball. She is also lower energy (I would say medium/high) but has extremely balanced drives and does not react right away, she will assess the situation first. She excels at herding and tracking and although her obedience is not very flashy, I believe it could be if her drives were triggered better/more. The handler works her very quietly and I do not believe you are seeing the "whole dog" during this phase of training. She is also quite handler sensitive and a verbal correction would be enough for her. A physical correction during protection will not do anything to this dog, but during obedience (when not in drive) will make her work even harder to please her handler. She does not drive forward in protection but takes a stance and waits for the decoy to engage her. With the other dogs she is quite dominant and pushy but not obsessive about it and definitely very clear headed about what needs correcting and what doesn't. In public she is extremely social with people, kids and anyone else. She does well with other dogs as well. She will search for her ball, food or tug for hours if allowed.

The second dog I have met was a female at a club I visited a few times and if wasn't for the drive, would be a member of. The dog Hillsviews Sonia is more like my Zefra in temperament and drive. I see more similarities in this dog to my Zefra than to Zefra's own dam. More drive, a little more prey than defense, quick to react, harder to cap when in drive, a little edgy and doesn't like to out. Pushes forward, likes the fight.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:07 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Elizabeth, your post is very interesting. I have a 6 month puppy whose father is a son of Puci Jipo Me. Your description of the Xant/Puci dog is almost identical to this puppy. My puppy is incredibly athletic, with uncanny intelligence to figure stuff out. (Carmen you would LOVE this puppy....your type!)
This puppy has tremendous nerve, will go anywhere anytime with no hesitation and I mean heights, darkness, slippery floors, heating grates, wire, mesh surfaces, anything...and he does this with confidence. This puppy also is fearless in face of threat....nice balance of prey/defense drive. Always barks with deep authoritative bark and never has taken the shrill screeching prey bark.
Now I note the common denominator of Puci Jipo Me. From what I have heard she produced incredible soundness. Notice she comes over Norbo as I noted in an earlier post. Norbos sire Car z K.........., was known for producing dogs with incredible train ability and intuitiveness. When mixed with the right dam line he could also produce very very strong dogs such as Honza Okal, which is a dog that is known for producing very strong LE type dogs.
Carmen, what do you see in Puci.?......one last note about the bidability of Car progeny, many of you have read about the dog Andy Maly Vah and his incredible versatility in training and title....well his mother was Nessie Ben Ju, sister to Norbo and also out of Car.....see the connection?
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:42 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Elizabeth, your post is very interesting. I have a 6 month puppy whose father is a son of Puci Jipo Me. Your description of the Xant/Puci dog is almost identical to this puppy. My puppy is incredibly athletic, with uncanny intelligence to figure stuff out. (Carmen you would LOVE this puppy....your type!)
This puppy has tremendous nerve, will go anywhere anytime with no hesitation and I mean heights, darkness, slippery floors, heating grates, wire, mesh surfaces, anything...and he does this with confidence. This puppy also is fearless in face of threat....nice balance of prey/defense drive. Always barks with deep authoritative bark and never has taken the shrill screeching prey bark.
one last note about the bidability of Car progeny, many of you have read about the dog Andy Maly Vah and his incredible versatility in training and title....well his mother was Nessie Ben Ju, sister to Norbo and also out of Car.....see the connection?
This is really interesting!

I look forward to see how the pups turn out from your 6 month's old litter. Besides their gorgeous looks, they are everything I'd want(I see two of them often).
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:58 PM   #29 (permalink)
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In all fairness, the dam of my puppy is also very very strong. And of course she contributes a big piece also. But there are two pups out of this litter I see every week, the other is more drives and probably gets that from the dam side....but both pups are super confident. (The mother is a Wildhaus dog and I consider Chris a visionary in terms of breeding for now and the future)
Anyway, it's always about balancing traits for a good well rounded dog. Jmo.
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:00 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Cliff - VERY interesting.

I was going to write more but it was very late and I was very tired.

What I noticed (and what other people who are more experienced than me pointed out) about my Zefra (she is only Czech on the bottom) is that she starts out in prey but the moment the decoy (or any threat) raises a hand at her in a threatening manner, she is all business. As she matures, I can start to see the difference (with the help of my trainers) between a prey move/bark and a defensive one (please remember I am just starting to learn!). She can switch back and forth if the threat retreats, so does she. Very interesting to see her be able to switch back and forth.

She is great with heights, flooring and noise. We did have an issue at the SV show with the gun shot going off - but, granted (and I know everyone says this) she had NEVER reacted like that before to one - and she has been around gun shot A LOT (hunting with my Dad, at training, etc.). She has no problem going through small tunnels, spaces or climbing on things, etc.

She is also super social with people - almost to a fault, but this is getting better. She will actually wait now for them to invite her over for a hello. She would stretch her neck out so far and wiggle her whole body if someone even glanced at her before.. lol. Going from a people reactive dog to a dog who wants to be everyone's best friend - I will take the latter.. lol.

Zefra is also extremely biddable and has AMAZING handler focus. I never really "taught" her that but I definitely did enforce/capitalize on it! It doesn't matter what is going on around her, who is around, what is around, I have her undivided attention at all times - even without asking.. lol. We will be at the park, kids, dogs, bikes, birds, squirrels, etc. all around us and she will stand there staring at me waiting for me to give her a command. She has also been known to go into fronts and fuss just to get my attention - focus never wavering. From what people here know about Stark, my male - you can probably imagine how delighted I am over this part of her.

One thing that she does have a harder time doing is settling in the house though. Even with sufficient exercise both mental and physical she will not settle as nicely as Stark. If your up, she is up, if the cat is up, she is up, she does get up and down and grab a toy. She will entertain herself, but has a hard time settling unless told too. She doesn't get into trouble or mess with anything in the house, but can not really "settle" herself for more than a 1/2 hour at a time. It doesn't bother me too much since Stark is such a couch potato.
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