Hanach Jipo-Me 4th bloodline? - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

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Old 10-21-2012, 05:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I think the way to learn about pedigrees is just to listen... lol.

I know, for me, talking well.. not so much talking, but listening to those who have been involved with the breed for MANY years has it's advantages.

I have learned a lot (and that is just the surface!) over the past few years and that is just by submersing myself amoungst those who know the breed... listening to those talk about dogs in front of them and them referring to the dogs of the past, etc...

Also, making correlations with dogs that interest you and taking the time to really research the beginning and not just what you see on the surface/at trials, etc..

I could be way off, but that is how I am going about it.. lol.
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:34 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:44 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thanks for the clarification Cliff, I appreciate it. I will say this to keep your analogy going, while some may not know trig yet, don't assume the foundation necessary to understand some trig concepts is not there. Throw it out there - I may not understand, but maybe others will, and maybe the ensuing discussion will lead to further understanding by the community as a whole. Often when the pedigree and bloodline discussions venture beneath the surface, they sputter and die. Disappointing.

I realize this came up in a wonky context. I get the concept of bloodlines, and have been researching and studying. I just do not understand the application of bloodlines to breeding in this context, at least as I have heard it used and explained on another forum concerning Czech GSDs.

Thanks again.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:01 AM   #24 (permalink)
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" Often when the pedigree and bloodline discussions venture beneath the surface, they sputter and die. Disappointing"

And disappointed.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:02 AM   #25 (permalink)
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There is merit in going backwards and understanding significant bloodlines and what they bring to the table.
As an example how many great pedigrees have or are built on Ingo Rudigen . He is represented in DDR , Czech, WGWL , Belgian dogs of note - . I happen to love this dog especially coming through Held Ritterberg which was a click and brings my other super favourite Bernd Lierberg (double!) through Burga haus Himpel. Of course you can not forget that Ingo is the sire of Jeff Flamings Sand sire of the great Lord Gleisdreieck and Birko Wolfshohle and Don Clausberg. V Don vom Clausberg
So that puts Ingo into a significant work producing DDR dog - and later into a significant work producing Czech dog Titus Pohranicni Straze and his progeny.
No Ingo , No Orry haus Antverpa (Belgian) which would mean no Tom Leefdaalhof and no Vito Waldwinkel (WG) then no B- Wolfsheim (Bomber / Bandit)

getting late
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:16 AM   #26 (permalink)
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to add , no Ingo, no Elute or Gringo Mohnwiese.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:27 AM   #27 (permalink)
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because I write in bits and pieces as I find time , this "No Ingo , No Orry haus Antverpa (Belgian) which would mean no Tom Leefdaalhof and no Vito Waldwinkel (WG) then no B- Wolfsheim (Bomber / Bandit" was incomplete , then I added Elute and Gringo , but that was a brain blip because I had actually wanted to emphasize how valuable VITO WALDWINKEL (as I mentioned in another thread ) was becoming as a proven producer of strong (sane) working dogs ---- Vito is the sire of the 2012 BSP Sieger HANK WEINBERGBLICK who has a stellar record in performance , including two 300 point (perfect) scores V (LGZS) Hank vom Weinbergblick


This pedigree makes good use of Ingo http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=705229 nice planning !

so to bring it back to the "line" I believe Ingo belongs to the 5th line -- correct me if this is wrong.

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(what an interesting pup this is Grisu vom Kapbusch

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Old 10-22-2012, 09:31 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Carmen, as you know Heldv Ritterberg, Bernd v Lierberg, Marko vom Cellerland, and Mutz v d Pelztieferm is my Mount Rushmore.....I agree that Ingo is probably the most influential GS that the average breed person knows little about. He had a tremendous influence on many sub lines of the breed.
@ Jmdjack ....I probably have posted as much pedigree analysis in the past as anyone except Carmen....
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:14 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Cliff, yes you have and I greatly appreciate it. My last post was in the context of this thread and your explanation of why you did not go into more detail, hence my continuing on with your trig analogy. I certainly was not meaning to imply otherwise because I, again, appreciate the generosity with which you share knowledge and your efforts to educate. I was encouraging you to continue to do so in situations like this one. I think we are getting our wires crossed a little bit because this is occurring on the internet. If we were sitting down talking about this over a beer I am confident these minor misunderstandings would be avoided. You, Carmen, and a few others are the primary reasons why I check in here.

Since asking these questions, I tracked down the "basic bloodlines" thread on Hans' site and read it. I do not want to rehash that here because it is pretty well hashed out there. I got hung up on the notions that (1) it is best to breed within a line and then next best to breed to lines next to each other and (2) the attribution of traits to lines that descend to male dogs many decades ago (i.e. this line has high anger, good tracking, lesser obedience, that line is super protective, early maturing, handler aggression). When looking back to male dogs alive 70 to 100 years ago, there are many, many sire lines between the tale male and tail female lines, and an equal number of female lines, including the tail female line. In my mind I think, how can one line (the tail male line) dictate the above? I have it better sorted now having read that thread (which in my mind means there is a lot more to it than the tail male line!).

Carmen, thanks for the discussion of Ingo (both my dogs go back to Ingo). According to the Jinopo website, Ingo is 5th line which is Rolf O. By all accounts, Ingo was quite a dog and your examples of breedings built around him is very interesting. Here's my question as it relates to bloodlines: is Ingo representative of Rolf? If not, what is the utility in characterizing him as part of the Rolf bloodline?

I want to be clear about a couple things. I am not criticizing Jinopo or Hans (AlpineK9) and I am not challenging your (Cliff and Carmen) knowledge - that would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I am genuinely curious and trying to put the pieces together.

Thanks.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Thanks Jmdjack, it's all good....I guess the problem from my perspective is that I don't look at those things from the perspective Hans or Jiri does in terms of those lines. First they pretty much leave out the western dogs, yet they go back to Western dogs like Rolf. Second, I place more emphasis on the female line then analyst that primarily use sire line analysis to predict outcomes. I try to factor in both Czech, Western, SL, DDR, in looking at a pedigree . Both males and females....therefore you have to have good fundamental knowledge of all the lines. That's even more important today as you see more mixing of everything(Czech,DDR,west), except for show lines. So this is why it is sometimes difficult to go into detail and it makes sense with say the bloodline numbers that Jinopo uses. I'm looking at a wider spectrum that affects outcome from my perspective. Nothing wrong with what they set up from their perspective, but I don't use that standard of analysis. Hope this helps.
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