Hanach Jipo-Me 4th bloodline?

[Catu]

I'm saving them with the hopes of someday to be able to understand them

[jmdjack]

phgsd, great charts! Thank you.

Carmen, I regret that the other topic did not go further. I had my "notebook" out and was hoping to learn more modern dogs who tend to be representative of each of the founding regional types.

Back to this topic, I get that each sire line is SUPPOSED to represent something different. But what I do not get is how can looking solely at the sire line tell you about the dog? I say this because I have read some (not you) who purport to attribute traits to czech lines based upon these "bloodlines." While I personally believe knowing the bloodlines (back beyond a few generations) is valuable, I am having a hard time comprehending that these sire lines alone predict traits in this day and age. The further back these dogs are in a pedigree, the MORE dogs are in the pedigree and the more influences there are outside of the sire line. Indeed, what about the female lines?

As reflected in phgsd's charts, Bernd Lierberg is within Rolf's sire line. Is Bernd representative of Rolf? If a male is not a representative of the founder's bloodline - which in the case of Bernd I suspect he is not - what good is characterizing the dogs by a particular male bloodline? Don't get me wrong, I believe bloodlines are important, but I believe a focus on the entire pedigree - and a focus on the characteristics of the actual dogs in the first few generations as they are a product of what is behind them - is what is important. Those are the humble beliefs of a guy who has never bred a single litter and will likely never do so . . . .

[Ace952]

When they (JINOPO) state that a dog is from a certain bloodline, it means that they have looked at the sire side to see which one of their foundation dogs (z PS kennel) the sire of the dog comes from.

They feel that there are 6 bloodlines, (1st one is extinct) and each bloodline has certain positive & negative traits. For example, 2nd bloodline is known for aggression, etc. The 4th bloodline is known for its high prey etc.

Some agree and some don't with regards to the bloodline traits. To know for sure you have to have to have intimate knowledge of the lines, intimate knowledge of the offspring and most importantly you have to know how they match up with other bloodlines when breeding.

Hope that helped.

[Ace952]

btw....saw Hanach in person a few times. Very nice looking dog.

[cliffson1]

Look up pictures of working line dogs with a reverse mask.....then follow the pedigree....their is a very high probability that you will go back to
Lord v Gleisdreick and an even greater possibility that you go back to Ex v Reidstern . Now these dogs are 5 to 7 gen back in Lords case and 7 to 10 gen back in Ex's case....yet this trait still flows from them. This can happen with other traits also.

[jmdjack]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

Look up pictures of working line dogs with a reverse mask.....then follow the pedigree....their is a very high probability that you will go back to
Lord v Gleisdreick and an even greater possibility that you go back to Ex v Reidstern . Now these dogs are 5 to 7 gen back in Lords case and 7 to 10 gen back in Ex's case....yet this trait still flows from them. This can happen with other traits also.

Yep, I have read that on more than one occasion. However, is the reverse mask because Lord and Ex are in the sire line or because Lord and Ex are in the pedigree - whether it be sire line or elsewhere? As I said above, I believe knowledge of bloodlines is important. What I am trying to get my head wrapped around is the concept of attributing and predicting traits based solely upon a single sire line which I have seen done on another forum. I would think it is the entire pedigree which predicts the traits of a dog. I would also think line breeding and back massing would be more of a predictor than the sire line. Am I missing something?

As an aside since you mentioned Lord and Ex, I have a female who, according to the newly revamped Pedigree Database, is 3 - 6,6 on Lord and goes back to Ex 20 times - yes 20 times - in 8 generations (not in the sire line though). She does not have a reverse mask.

[cliffson1]

Yep, there is nothing absolute in reading pedigrees or sire lines. Because like you said, the whole pedigree is involved, then many variations can and do occur. Maybe it's better to just assume some of us are lucky in using pedigrees to make decisions and land on our feet.....lol. You won't be by yourself with that reasoning either.....take care!

[Liberatore]

What's interesting is that the Arabian horse breed is based on female tail line, think exact opposite of male line, dam->dam->dam->dam... Interesting considering the male dominated society they originate from.

Ang

[jmdjack]

Thanks Cliff, I think? Not quite sure where you were going after the first two sentences. If I wanted to assume luck, I would not be asking the questions. Just trying to learn . . . . I will let it go and pursue this information elsewhere. Regards!

[cliffson1]

Hey Jmdjack.....I wasn't trying to be negative or blow you off....actually I agreed with you. It is difficult for many to conceptualize how a sire line or pedigree tells people something...what I am saying is basically it took many many years of information for the pedigree geeks to use the tool. It's difficult to answer many of the questions asked because the foundation isn't there. So cheek in tongue, it's better to think its luck than to worry or try to understand.
Sometimes, it is frustrating when you get into pedigrees because a question will be about something on the 4th level, and you try to answer it knowing without thorough understanding of the preceding three level your answer will not satisfy the questioner. Kinda like explaining trigonometry and you haven't ever taken Algebra or Geometry....your answer makes little sense because it is predicated on the understanding of Thr other two. Now, I am not saying pedigrees are just like that, but reading them requires a lot of knowledge of not only the dogs involved but also which things may or may not come through based on what you know. If you stay committed to studying these dogs and their traits it will start to become less muddy....but it can be difficult to explain so people understand( the reading of them)......so in many cases you have to trust the individual until it makes sense....who do you trust????...lol...the ones that seem very lucky about constantly getting good dogs, breeding nice litters, or hitting the nail on the head.