Foundation Lines and what they bring

[jmdjack]

Wildo, if you have not done so already, you may want to check out the Gordon Garrett book: http://www.angelplace.net/doc/GarrettBook.pdf.
There is some interesting information in there. I stumbled across it when trying to track down information about Claudius von Hain. Interestingly, according to the Garrett book, there were disparate views on Claudius between the working breeders and the confirmation breeders. Alfred Hahn's (Busecker Schloss) eyes were said to have lit up at the mention of Claudius and the working breeders stressed the working ability he produced. The conformation breeders felt that Claudius was "too aggressive" and "vicious" and he produced it. (p. 165) Doesn't sound all that different from today . . . .

I also recall coming across an article/essay by Elliot Humphrey titled something like "Outstanding Sire Lines in Shepherds" which discussed some of the early dogs. After a quick search, however, I could not find it on the internet.

Carmen, I look forward to the "more to come" from you and hopefully others. In an effort to keep this discussion going, I will throw out a few questions: Do the different lines bring different things to the table in terms of health - i.e. hips, etc.? Are there physical characteristics - head shape, eyes, ears, tails, coat, etc. - which provide clues as to the predominance of lines in a particular dog? Any examples of more modern dogs who are representative of the Wurtemberg and/or Swabian lines? (Not particularly modern, and I cannot recall where I go this, but I have in my notes that Bernd Lierberg is representative of the Swabian service dog.)

[Catu]

Are there present dogs that resemblance the different lines, either in temperament or conformation, that you can show to us to understand better the difference between them?

[carmspack]

Yes I will add more for sure , just try and stop me. I have the von Stephanitz book open to where I want to continue . It will explain why the GSD herds how it does , and why Border Collies and their behaviour are not even close . I believe there is even a section that discusses the Border Collie as not being something to bring in to the genetic fold BUT a there was a version of ENGLISH SHEPHERD (collie type but NOT Queen Victoria's needle nosed cross which is what we associate with rough coated collies) which was used as one of the "unknown" unregistered herding females -- . The English Shepherd also known as the American Farm Collie is genetically similar on the canine genome study - molosser group, whereas the Border Collie is not , they are part of the "wolf" group - dna .

Gord Garrett , is a wonderful man -- a true lover and observer of German Shepherds . I knew him from the very start of my participating , made a beeline to him every time- made a point of scanning the arena or the field for him. He was most visible in the "american" show lines .
I have to thank him for all his support because even back then breeding for working was going against the stream.

[marshies]

This is a fascinating thread. I have nothing to contribute, but wanted to respond so I could subscribe and learn.

A very basic, and stupid, question. If we wanted to trace our own dogs back to these bloodlines, do we just keep clicking on the last dog visible on pedigree database until we see them? Or, repeating a question up there, are there bloodlines to look for that prominently feature the characteristics of each of the foundation stock?

[wildo]

I think that you guys asking about specific dogs that resemble certain foundation bloodlines is a logical progression of the thread. One thing I hope those who have the skill and knowledge to actually answer that do is to use restriction in answering. A lot of these threads turn in to a "name drop fest" where it just becomes a bunch of dog names that only those with knowledge can look into and appreciate. When the thread turns that direction, it becomes SO hard for those of us who can't follow along to stay involved, not matter how hard we try.

So, like I said, I also wonder if there are specific dogs to represent foundation lines. (take Umsa vom Bungalow, who is a strong representation of the Minna lines, which were a strong representation of foundation Thuringian lines: see this thread for more info, and also to see how lots of dog names starts eliminating novice participation in the thread) ...But I hope this thread can stay accessible for those of us without the experience to research dog after dog after dog after dog...

[carmspack]

wait and understand what they were like at the beginning before being inundated with names that don't mean anything . You don't have to go back as far as Sali vd Krone and Minna -- that is a little esoteric and you need more of a foundation in the development of the breed - just like this thread and understanding that Wurtembergers, and the Swabian herding and Swabian service dogs were very similar , but with slight preferences towards special talents . That is why I am taking excerpts out of the von Stephanitz book because it is all laid out there . You need to understand the herding back then, the life of the wanderschaferei and get herding instinct testing , and border collies , and even trial type herding out of the picture and then you will appreciate the different ancentral types better. Put yourself back then as much as possible .

[robk]

I love this thread as well and have decided to order a copy of v. Stephanitz book. I think it will be a valuable investment. Well worth the money. What other books would be good to go to?

Edit: anybody can answer.

[cliffson1]

Malcolm Willis's book on the genetics of the GS has good information.

[carmspack]

Malcolm Willis - all three (I had lent my copy out so many times without it being returned I think I was Willis' best customer -- as a favour I got him to autograph one of his editions !! He wrote To Carmen with best wishes and then on the bottom in big block writing and stars and asteriks he said With Books - Neither a lender nor borrower be )
You can bet that book is not leaving my library .

Brian Wooton

[carmspack]

wah -- I was called away for a moment then wrote so much more that I exceeded the 10 minutes allowed for an edit --

here goes again -- years ago I belonged to the Alsation League of Great Britain, which eventually was changed to the name German Shepherd League of G B , giving full recognition to the Germanic origins of the breed . In the early 1900's there were English writers Horowitz as sample who made claims that the dog was British - Alsation - Schwaber also has some odd statements - but then so does von Stephanitz -- not only do you have to understand the agriculture and urbanization and keeping both camps happy , you have to understand the social climate and biases of the time which influenced these men ! Anyway , the League put out a yearly hard cover year book and there were some very good articles discussing family lines , historical backgrounds .

Another source , magazines Das Schaferhund Magazin . I just happened to have the June 2002 issue handy . There is a good 5 page discussion on Dasty von Gries , and an article on kennel Zwinger ,, vom Kirchberghof . The magazine was within reach because I had been researching the influence to my breeding program of a a Chip Kirchberghof son that I have , and Chip's sire is Dasty v Gries .