Gildo vom Koerbelbach, Olko, Orly vom Baerenfang - Page 2

wolfstraum · 10-03-2012, 11:05 PM

Alice, dam of my A & B's, had him in 4th via Arek....her dam was by Arek...but nothing alive and available from her for breeding

I would really liked to have gotten my breedings to her son - but....hey.....life happens....

She was also linebred on Mutz....

I believe Raino Flugge had a litter line bred on Gildo??? Lisa may remember...

Lee

Wild Wolf · 10-03-2012, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

Careful, that's my dad we are talking about here.
But yeah, he was off in Darmstadt because something was going on with a new helper and my dad couldn't get it worked out before the trial, if I remember correctly.

My apologies, no offense meant whatsoever. I just hate to see a dog in transport and steal a bite and have to be pulled off. Have seen many videos of Gildo, and as I mentioned I really like this male! Again, I just meant these two videos were upsetting.

wolfstraum · 10-04-2012, 12:10 AM

Remember, this was 25 years ago!! The precision that gets the points now was not common (from teh videos I have watched) and power, strength and aggression was rewarded with points rather than the dog staring at the handler throughout! I enjoyed seeing this dog, even with the differences in handling, he shows his drive and personality! I knew your father used Gildo as a sire, but did not know he actually owned him Sandra...

correction - he was in 3 on Alice, 4 on her progeny....

Lee

Wild Wolf · 10-04-2012, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfstraum

Remember, this was 25 years ago!! The precision that gets the points now was not common (from teh videos I have watched) and power, strength and aggression was rewarded with points rather than the dog staring at the handler throughout! I enjoyed seeing this dog, even with the differences in handling, he shows his drive and personality! I knew your father used Gildo as a sire, but did not know he actually owned him Sandra...

correction - he was in 3 on Alice, 4 on her progeny....

Lee

Absolutely!!

BlackthornGSD · 10-04-2012, 12:49 AM

Yeah--before you comment too much about the obed or control, watch some other videos from the 80s. Such a different sport!

BlackthornGSD · 10-04-2012, 02:12 AM

linebred on Gildo 5-4 - Aragon vom Sophienhof - working-dog.eu

Chash vd Suderholmer Strasse and Lump v Cap Arkona
linebred on Arek, with Wotan, Happy, and Fricka Baerenfang: Chash von der Suderholmer Strasse - German Shepherd Dog
SG Lump vom Cap Arkona - German Shepherd Dog

Hardy v Struwwelpeter
linebred on Gildo, 4,5-4
5 geneneration pedigree for Hardy vom Struwwelpeter - German Shepherd Dog

Bruno v Midlicher Land
Wotan in the 3rd generation
Bruno vom Midlicher Land - German Shepherd Dog

Czcibor
Orly in the 4th
Czcibor - German Shepherd Dog

Nick del Lupo Nero
Gildo in the 4th
5 geneneration pedigree for Nick del Lupo Nero - German Shepherd Dog

Lubeck vd Mahler-Meister
Gildo 5-5, Orly 5-4
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=627896

Many more dogs linebred on Orly: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...e-linebreeding

**lhczth** · 10-04-2012, 10:20 AM

Good research Christine!

Vandal · 10-04-2012, 10:52 AM

I'm trying to understand what is being said here. Seems people are saying SchH was so different back then and that is the reason for Gildo's performance? You think that all the dogs back then were out of control and it was allowed and not penalized? That's just not true. Yeah, you would not be dismissed but you did lose points each time the dog bothered or in this case, bit the helper.

I'll agree you can see his drive and his "personality" and not all of that is good. I have seen dogs like this and worked them. Hardness to the point of being not very trainable. When I say hard, I mean where the dog is basically not affected by corrections. Fights right through them and then you see this aggressive behavior when he is asked for obedience. In this case, it is channeled into the helper but I saw sons where it was not. The dog should be able to contain himself much better. His behavior in these videos says something about the dog, this is not just the training.

Is it a huge problem to see this dog in a pedigree? No, but it depends on the rest of the pedigree. As was already mentioned, he is far back now, so , his influence is deminished. I had a female who was 4-5 on Gildo, ( and I did not do the breeding because of that, I can assure you), I didn't see this side of Gildo at all in that dog. She had a big grip and fight drive but there were other dogs in the pedigree who brought that as well, without the ,( for the lack of a better term), ...nastiness.

What this line represents to me is hardness. When you have too much hardness, you get what people refer to as stubborn. Watch the transports and the heeling to the escape. Does that look familiar to anyone? I've read scathing comments when people watch some of the show dogs heeling this way. Believe it or not, there is a similarity here. Maybe most people do not view show line dogs as being "hard" but back then, ( and I even see some today), you could find show line dogs who just would not respond to corrections. That weird hardness where you could watch people being very harsh with the dogs and there would be no response. Like correcting a tree. As a general rule, the dogs back then were harder and the heeling in the transport was not about prancing and looking up at the handler. However, you can see what it took to get this dog to kind of stay with the handler when their was some distance from the helper and then of course, the inability of the handler to control him when the helper was just too close for the dog to contain himself. BTW, I think the handler did a good job considering what he was dealing with.

Nowadays, I think we could use more hardness in the breed, so not a bad line to consider. However, you do not have to sacrifice hardness and fight drive for a lack of trainability. Nowadays, we have dogs who are very obedient, again, they could use some hardness and certainly fight drive. This dog had that. At the time however, there were dogs who had both trainability and the right degree of hardness. We discussed the Caro Allerswald influence on the Euro list. These dogs were not easy to train...at all. Not my kind of dog, so people can consider my bias when they read this.

robk · 10-04-2012, 11:33 AM

Dang! I would hate to piss that dog off in a real life situation!

carmspack · 10-04-2012, 02:39 PM

not your source of genetic obedience !

10-03-2012, 11:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
wolfstraum Crowned Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: PA Posts: 8,218	Alice, dam of my A & B's, had him in 4th via Arek....her dam was by Arek...but nothing alive and available from her for breeding I would really liked to have gotten my breedings to her son - but....hey.....life happens.... She was also linebred on Mutz.... I believe Raino Flugge had a litter line bred on Gildo??? Lisa may remember... Lee __________________ Csabre Sch1, Hexe Sch2, Bengal, Komet, Kyra, Kira & Kougar v Wolfstraum ~ - Danger Sch1 SAR - ATB~ Kougar Sch3, Kyra Sch3, Cito Sch2, Alice Sch1, Kelsey CD, Ret ~ Basha Sch3, Fenja Sch3 wolfstraum.net

10-04-2012, 12:10 AM	#13 (permalink)
wolfstraum Crowned Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: PA Posts: 8,218	Remember, this was 25 years ago!! The precision that gets the points now was not common (from teh videos I have watched) and power, strength and aggression was rewarded with points rather than the dog staring at the handler throughout! I enjoyed seeing this dog, even with the differences in handling, he shows his drive and personality! I knew your father used Gildo as a sire, but did not know he actually owned him Sandra... correction - he was in 3 on Alice, 4 on her progeny.... Lee __________________ Csabre Sch1, Hexe Sch2, Bengal, Komet, Kyra, Kira & Kougar v Wolfstraum ~ - Danger Sch1 SAR - ATB~ Kougar Sch3, Kyra Sch3, Cito Sch2, Alice Sch1, Kelsey CD, Ret ~ Basha Sch3, Fenja Sch3 wolfstraum.net

10-04-2012, 12:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
BlackthornGSD Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Central Virginia Posts: 1,426	Yeah--before you comment too much about the obed or control, watch some other videos from the 80s. Such a different sport! __________________ Christine Blackthorn Working German Shepherds

10-04-2012, 02:12 AM	#16 (permalink)
BlackthornGSD Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Central Virginia Posts: 1,426	linebred on Gildo 5-4 - Aragon vom Sophienhof - working-dog.eu Chash vd Suderholmer Strasse and Lump v Cap Arkona linebred on Arek, with Wotan, Happy, and Fricka Baerenfang: Chash von der Suderholmer Strasse - German Shepherd Dog SG Lump vom Cap Arkona - German Shepherd Dog Hardy v Struwwelpeter linebred on Gildo, 4,5-4 5 geneneration pedigree for Hardy vom Struwwelpeter - German Shepherd Dog Bruno v Midlicher Land Wotan in the 3rd generation Bruno vom Midlicher Land - German Shepherd Dog Czcibor Orly in the 4th Czcibor - German Shepherd Dog Nick del Lupo Nero Gildo in the 4th 5 geneneration pedigree for Nick del Lupo Nero - German Shepherd Dog Lubeck vd Mahler-Meister Gildo 5-5, Orly 5-4 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=627896 Many more dogs linebred on Orly: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...e-linebreeding __________________ Christine Blackthorn Working German Shepherds Last edited by BlackthornGSD; 10-04-2012 at 02:15 AM.

10-04-2012, 10:20 AM	#17 (permalink)
lhczth Administrator & LOTR Addict Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 13,740	Good research Christine! __________________ Lisa Clark Zu Treuen Händen Working German Shepherd Dogs *South Michigan SchH and Police Club*

10-04-2012, 10:52 AM	#18 (permalink)
Vandal Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Saugus, CA Posts: 1,990	I'm trying to understand what is being said here. Seems people are saying SchH was so different back then and that is the reason for Gildo's performance? You think that all the dogs back then were out of control and it was allowed and not penalized? That's just not true. Yeah, you would not be dismissed but you did lose points each time the dog bothered or in this case, bit the helper. I'll agree you can see his drive and his "personality" and not all of that is good. I have seen dogs like this and worked them. Hardness to the point of being not very trainable. When I say hard, I mean where the dog is basically not affected by corrections. Fights right through them and then you see this aggressive behavior when he is asked for obedience. In this case, it is channeled into the helper but I saw sons where it was not. The dog should be able to contain himself much better. His behavior in these videos says something about the dog, this is not just the training. Is it a huge problem to see this dog in a pedigree? No, but it depends on the rest of the pedigree. As was already mentioned, he is far back now, so , his influence is deminished. I had a female who was 4-5 on Gildo, ( and I did not do the breeding because of that, I can assure you), I didn't see this side of Gildo at all in that dog. She had a big grip and fight drive but there were other dogs in the pedigree who brought that as well, without the ,( for the lack of a better term), ...nastiness. What this line represents to me is hardness. When you have too much hardness, you get what people refer to as stubborn. Watch the transports and the heeling to the escape. Does that look familiar to anyone? I've read scathing comments when people watch some of the show dogs heeling this way. Believe it or not, there is a similarity here. Maybe most people do not view show line dogs as being "hard" but back then, ( and I even see some today), you could find show line dogs who just would not respond to corrections. That weird hardness where you could watch people being very harsh with the dogs and there would be no response. Like correcting a tree. As a general rule, the dogs back then were harder and the heeling in the transport was not about prancing and looking up at the handler. However, you can see what it took to get this dog to kind of stay with the handler when their was some distance from the helper and then of course, the inability of the handler to control him when the helper was just too close for the dog to contain himself. BTW, I think the handler did a good job considering what he was dealing with. Nowadays, I think we could use more hardness in the breed, so not a bad line to consider. However, you do not have to sacrifice hardness and fight drive for a lack of trainability. Nowadays, we have dogs who are very obedient, again, they could use some hardness and certainly fight drive. This dog had that. At the time however, there were dogs who had both trainability and the right degree of hardness. We discussed the Caro Allerswald influence on the Euro list. These dogs were not easy to train...at all. Not my kind of dog, so people can consider my bias when they read this. __________________ Anne www.adlerstein.com Last edited by Vandal; 10-04-2012 at 10:55 AM.

10-04-2012, 11:33 AM	#19 (permalink)
robk Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 1,541	Dang! I would hate to piss that dog off in a real life situation! __________________ Honor Von Kaltwasser BH aka "Ruger" http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-detai...von-Kaltwasser

10-04-2012, 02:39 PM	#20 (permalink)
carmspack Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 5,558	not your source of genetic obedience !

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