Von Giliannes - Belgian breeder. spit some thoughts? - Page 4

**lhczth** · 08-23-2012, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffson1

I love that protection routine!!!! Yeah yeah I know his butt did not touch Thr ground on some sits....whatever! But his transports, clean calm, looking straight ahead ready to apprehend or ready to mrespond to a counter command from the owner. No hyperactive repeated forging. Nothing stylish but very very functional and real. I'm sure the Sch gods can nitpick the performance, but I saw a rock solid routine.

Finally was able to get YouTube to download onto my phone. Very nice dog!!! This is the type of dog that smart breeders use.

Cliff, you need to get out more.

The SchH gods I train with would see the quality of this dog and appreciate the dog for who he is. Yes, just like you, they would see the places where points might be taken, but that is only a small part of the whole.

Vandal · 08-23-2012, 11:59 AM

There are a couple of things that caught my eye about this dog. First, the guarding. He stands in front of the helper vs sitting. Some of the best dogs I have ever seen, work this way and each one of those dogs brought a level of seriousness to the work that was quite clear, just as it is here. I have owned dogs over the years and have some now, who do not want to sit in front of the helper. For me, that's simply ideal.

He flies after the helper on the escape and when the attacks come, he really brings it. He accelerates into the helper on the attack out of the back transport and the courage test you can see the power, even though he doesn't leave the ground 20 feet away from him, ( something so many finds desirable now). You can see the serious in this style as well but he is really very compliant. That leads me to my next SchH myth rebuke that hard, tough dogs are difficult to control. I have never known that to be the case, the serious dogs are much more willing to work with the handler IF they have the right genetics..

I actually think there are dogs like this still but not common, just like they were not that common years and years ago. We can pretend that all the dogs were just great back then but they were not. They were different, and overall better than many we see now in that protection was REALLY protection, but the great dogs were not "common". We saw less balance in the dogs then, just like now. However, it was different in that the dogs were all trained too much on the "defense" side of things and the control was not there. Now, we see the pendulum has swung all the way to the other side where there is perfect control, ( and ridiculous circus type obedience), but the power( and use of the protective instinct in the dogs), is simply not there. We watch the dogs now with suspicion because the training is hiding so much of what might be bad but in my opinion, can also be the good side of the dogs.
I think people have become so RIDICULOUS about being flashy and throwing in that kind of silly obedience in the middle of protection, it takes away from the performance. In this video, you can watch and actually see who the dog is, without being distracted, ( or disappointed in my case...lol...), because of the "side show" quality people insert into protection now. The handler throws in some flash but again, it is nothing that takes away from the dog himself.

One last thing about SchH...I have complained pretty loudly about what it is now. However, I think if you show up with a good dog, who is not flashy but shows correctly...just like in this video, you can get high points. This dog got a V, so, the idea that you can't score well without the flash, is simply not correct. There are judges out there who appreciate good dogs. They are not usually easy judges and are therefore not used much by SchH clubs but those are the more enjoyable judges to show under if you care about who your dog is and want that aspect emphasized.

As for Carmen's comments about Enno Beilstein...best GSD I have ever seen. It was said by many Germans it was a mistake he left Germany. If he had stayed, maybe people would be more excited about him but this was really one of the great dogs of all time, for so many reasons.

GSDAlphaMom · 08-23-2012, 02:03 PM

Amen Vandal!

cliffson1 · 08-23-2012, 02:29 PM

Lisa, I go to local trials, I go to regional trials( in my region), I go to the nationals when on the east coast or as far as Indiana, Ohio, where should I be going?.....lol

**Liesje** · 08-23-2012, 02:30 PM

Start with visiting Lisa's club!

cliffson1 · 08-23-2012, 02:53 PM

What will I see different at her club

**lhczth** · 08-23-2012, 03:33 PM

I am saying that there are people, especially in my region, that appreciate these dogs. They are able to look past some minor point deductions and see the real dog. I didn't say they all own these types of dogs now or you will see them everywhere.

I train with these people on a regular basis. I go out to eat with them, I sit and chat dogs with them. I see what they own, what they have owned in the past and I listen to what they say.

Thank you, Lies, but I would not consider any member of our club a SchH god.

**Liesje** · 08-23-2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffson1

What will I see different at her club

Me of course

cliffson1 · 08-23-2012, 04:30 PM

There are people here in the good ole East that would recognize a good dog like that.....but being as there are no Sch Gods in your club, Lisa, I'm obviously not referring to them. I am more referring to the type of training, emphasis, and scoring I often see at trials. I keep seeing another type dog and training that seem to be rewarded at trials. My bad.....times have changed and the sport is back to looking for power and steady over speed and choreography.
Thanks!

cliffson1 · 08-23-2012, 05:11 PM

Btw, I would love to come to you and Lisa's club to train and watch you train....would love to pick Lisa's brain on some specific west working dogs over the years....my comment was more in reference to what is type of dog I see a lot of today as opposed to individual people and their knowledge.

08-23-2012, 11:59 AM	#32 (permalink)
Vandal Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Saugus, CA Posts: 1,990	There are a couple of things that caught my eye about this dog. First, the guarding. He stands in front of the helper vs sitting. Some of the best dogs I have ever seen, work this way and each one of those dogs brought a level of seriousness to the work that was quite clear, just as it is here. I have owned dogs over the years and have some now, who do not want to sit in front of the helper. For me, that's simply ideal. He flies after the helper on the escape and when the attacks come, he really brings it. He accelerates into the helper on the attack out of the back transport and the courage test you can see the power, even though he doesn't leave the ground 20 feet away from him, ( something so many finds desirable now). You can see the serious in this style as well but he is really very compliant. That leads me to my next SchH myth rebuke that hard, tough dogs are difficult to control. I have never known that to be the case, the serious dogs are much more willing to work with the handler IF they have the right genetics.. I actually think there are dogs like this still but not common, just like they were not that common years and years ago. We can pretend that all the dogs were just great back then but they were not. They were different, and overall better than many we see now in that protection was REALLY protection, but the great dogs were not "common". We saw less balance in the dogs then, just like now. However, it was different in that the dogs were all trained too much on the "defense" side of things and the control was not there. Now, we see the pendulum has swung all the way to the other side where there is perfect control, ( and ridiculous circus type obedience), but the power( and use of the protective instinct in the dogs), is simply not there. We watch the dogs now with suspicion because the training is hiding so much of what might be bad but in my opinion, can also be the good side of the dogs. I think people have become so RIDICULOUS about being flashy and throwing in that kind of silly obedience in the middle of protection, it takes away from the performance. In this video, you can watch and actually see who the dog is, without being distracted, ( or disappointed in my case...lol...), because of the "side show" quality people insert into protection now. The handler throws in some flash but again, it is nothing that takes away from the dog himself. One last thing about SchH...I have complained pretty loudly about what it is now. However, I think if you show up with a good dog, who is not flashy but shows correctly...just like in this video, you can get high points. This dog got a V, so, the idea that you can't score well without the flash, is simply not correct. There are judges out there who appreciate good dogs. They are not usually easy judges and are therefore not used much by SchH clubs but those are the more enjoyable judges to show under if you care about who your dog is and want that aspect emphasized. As for Carmen's comments about Enno Beilstein...best GSD I have ever seen. It was said by many Germans it was a mistake he left Germany. If he had stayed, maybe people would be more excited about him but this was really one of the great dogs of all time, for so many reasons. __________________ Anne www.adlerstein.com Last edited by Vandal; 08-23-2012 at 12:02 PM.

08-23-2012, 02:30 PM	#35 (permalink)
Liesje Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 16,234	Start with visiting Lisa's club! __________________ Liesje & Nikon vom Blauen Horizont / Blue Horizon GSDs

08-23-2012, 03:33 PM	#37 (permalink)
lhczth Administrator & LOTR Addict Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 13,714	I am saying that there are people, especially in my region, that appreciate these dogs. They are able to look past some minor point deductions and see the real dog. I didn't say they all own these types of dogs now or you will see them everywhere. I train with these people on a regular basis. I go out to eat with them, I sit and chat dogs with them. I see what they own, what they have owned in the past and I listen to what they say. Thank you, Lies, but I would not consider any member of our club a SchH god. __________________ Lisa Clark Zu Treuen Händen Working German Shepherd Dogs *South Michigan SchH and Police Club*

08-23-2012, 02:03 PM	#33 (permalink)
GSDAlphaMom Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 2,361	Amen Vandal!

08-23-2012, 02:29 PM	#34 (permalink)
cliffson1 Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,867	Lisa, I go to local trials, I go to regional trials( in my region), I go to the nationals when on the east coast or as far as Indiana, Ohio, where should I be going?.....lol

08-23-2012, 02:53 PM	#36 (permalink)
cliffson1 Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,867	What will I see different at her club

08-23-2012, 04:30 PM	#39 (permalink)
cliffson1 Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,867	There are people here in the good ole East that would recognize a good dog like that.....but being as there are no Sch Gods in your club, Lisa, I'm obviously not referring to them. I am more referring to the type of training, emphasis, and scoring I often see at trials. I keep seeing another type dog and training that seem to be rewarded at trials. My bad.....times have changed and the sport is back to looking for power and steady over speed and choreography. Thanks!

08-23-2012, 05:11 PM	#40 (permalink)
cliffson1 Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,867	Btw, I would love to come to you and Lisa's club to train and watch you train....would love to pick Lisa's brain on some specific west working dogs over the years....my comment was more in reference to what is type of dog I see a lot of today as opposed to individual people and their knowledge.

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