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Von Giliannes - Belgian breeder. spit some thoughts?

32K views 115 replies 20 participants last post by  tttop 
#1 ·
#37 ·
I am saying that there are people, especially in my region, that appreciate these dogs. They are able to look past some minor point deductions and see the real dog. I didn't say they all own these types of dogs now or you will see them everywhere.

I train with these people on a regular basis. I go out to eat with them, I sit and chat dogs with them. I see what they own, what they have owned in the past and I listen to what they say.

Thank you, Lies, but I would not consider any member of our club a SchH god. :)
 
#39 ·
There are people here in the good ole East that would recognize a good dog like that.....but being as there are no Sch Gods in your club, Lisa, I'm obviously not referring to them. I am more referring to the type of training, emphasis, and scoring I often see at trials. I keep seeing another type dog and training that seem to be rewarded at trials. My bad.....times have changed and the sport is back to looking for power and steady over speed and choreography.
Thanks!
 
#40 ·
Btw, I would love to come to you and Lisa's club to train and watch you train....would love to pick Lisa's brain on some specific west working dogs over the years....my comment was more in reference to what is type of dog I see a lot of today as opposed to individual people and their knowledge.:):)
 
#41 ·
I gotcha Cliff, I'm just messing around. I'm no SchH god, just a minion! My SchH dog is not one that responds to the type of training and handling that gets those flashy points so luckily I couldn't train that way even if I wanted to. For me the value of owning dogs is in the training and working together. If I can step out on the field in a trial and get a high G or SG then I'm totally satisfied with that. I mean, if my boss comes over to me at work and says "very good!" I'm happy with myself and proud of myself. The same is true for my dog. I do not train to compete for the top spots I just train and hope that I can show off my dog for what he is and do as well in trial as we do in training. If the top scoring competitors are focused on flash and points, I guess I'm OK with that to an extent. At least, I've never felt my dog was scored unfairly because he is not that type (and he's a showline). So far I felt he got what we earned at his SDA and SchH trials.
 
#43 ·
I think when you take a dog like "this" to training they don't recognize the virtues and have difficulty training . My experience with a few that went the SchH route , and that included "Chunko" who went to Nationals and was "'Decoys Choice" and who was always signaled out and commented on for his real power -- yet this dog was so stable immediately after the protection routine a 10 year old could walk him back to his families table -- with the dog having full manners .

They want to make this into "that" something that they are familiar with , more prey, more craziness, taking activity to indicate being in drive.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com
 
#44 ·
Cliff, just want to say that there are some lines that are more "sportier" here also depending on what type of activities and goals the breeders have. I guess this is also true for the rest of EU. The biggest difference is that basically all in EU breeds for SCH, but in sweden there are other sports that have influenced the breedings more before SCH even started to come around here. So it´s more a mix of different sports or servicedogs used.

I may be wrong but it seems today some dogs get quite a lot of breedings just because they are flashy in SCH, they may fly into the sleeve but doesn´t really show anything more that is impressive. Then there is of course also dogs that are flashy but also seems to have much of everything. Maybe a problem is if to many breeds to the sportier dogs that lacks in other areas, or those dogs that that are labeled good or even extreme but really aren´t that different from many other dogs you see in SCH.

A rather typical GSD from primarly swedish workinglines in many generations is this one, no couch potato but not so lively that some of the more sportier dogs seems to be, doing some form of norwegian mental test here,
Huldrans Herax - German Shepherd Dog

 
#45 ·
I do have a line with Zunderland and haus Sevens dogs - KNPV met lof (Tarik - later to become a police dog in New Jersey). In my digging around for information I found that Zunderland has a reputation for hard intense dogs , "
good nerves , is handler hard ( which is NOT handler aggressive ) has a good balance of intense prey, fight, defense, hunt and hardness in all situations. "

I found that they are handler hard , high pain threshold and forgiving , not handler aggressive .

The Norwegian mentality test looks like an Ingmar Bergmann movie - the spooks in the woods, the thoughts about the end of it all --
 
#46 ·
Bjorn from your mouth to my ears....lol. People get offended when I talk about "sporty" dogs, like they don't exist, or are rare. Nothing is absolute, but the breeding you are talking about in Sweden from older lines is exactly what I am talking about. I just like balanced dogs naturally, biddable naturally, and nothing over the top except nerve.
 
#47 ·
That temperament test is one of the most bazaar things I've ever seen!!! So creepy! So weird! Yet strangely awesome! I wonder if that dog passed the test. Sure seems like it. I know there were a few sections of that test that I don't think my dog would react well with. Thanks for sharing!
 
#49 ·
OMG I would LOVE to do one of those tests!! How COOL !!! and nice dog, he can come live with me:)
 
#50 ·
Does anyone know why they let the dog off lead once the creepy people had finished approaching? How does the dog decide they are no longer a threat? Isn't it dangerous since the dog could still view them as a threat? Or maybe in some way this demonstrates the balance in the dog?
 
#52 ·
And, at least with the two white "ghosts", the dog didn't want to engage the threat.
 
#54 ·
I wonder how that dog scored .

The following is putting a fine point on things , but I hope you will see how they add up.
Overall I want to see the dog more "with" the handler.
Looking for hints of genetic obedience , capacity to work with and for - off lead and at distance , willingly.

This first point is that there is a bit of a disconnect between dog and handler . I know that the handler has to be neutral so that the dog's behaviour is not influenced, that the results are what comes naturally from the dog. So if go to reference 1:37 to 2:15 excercise is find the handler who has run and hidden . The dog smartly pays attention to her leaving. When released dog departs in a straight line with good speed . Obviously he finds her . Here is where I would want to see something different . The handler in the bush has been found which initiates her exiting and returning to starting point evaluators. She breaks through the bush but the dog is no where to be seen for several seconds. He is still back in the bush snooping around with something that caught his interest. Who knows what the find was like. Did the dog find but blow right by her. On the walk back the dog is all over the place .
Compare
This black dog keeps looking to the handler , wants to return, even when checked on the long line , (hits end and self corrects) still wants to and then gets the physical exam from stranger and goes to joyful reunion. From beginning to point 1:20 to Herax

The Herax dog , to my thinking does to much displacement activity , he circles , he sniffs the ground when action is taking place that requires his attention (mild avoidance) . Check frame 4:25 and short time after. He has dealt with creepy thing #1, gone up and made contact and then , what? he runs away into the woods, while handler is there with creepy guy who was not a threat , just unusual , but things change and can change quickly. He needs a bit more natural suspicion or natural sharpness. This is one thing to be careful on in breeding . The dogs can be so "dull" or secure that they are not protective till the threat is right on top of them. One reason why a good pedigree should be like a fabric which brings in suspicion and then balances it. Combinations, using familiar names, some Fero , then balance with Bernd -- example only. You can not only have it one way . Bring in, counter balance .
Compare the black dog in the same two ghost scenario from frame 6:55 to about 10:. This dog is forward from the handler , keenly interested , fends off . Now the dog is paying more attention to ghost appearing on the left of screen. Some of this has to do with the handlers body position , she is angled towards this and looks to this side , so the dog is working "with" her in the area that she has concerns of . Had this been a neutral pole stake out I am sure the dog would have alternated more between the two oncoming weird things . Other than being abnormal the ghosts are neutral , not displaying threat. When released the dog goes in confidently to investigate more.
Dogs pick up on the most subtle things.

I do not know either dog -- the black dog was chosen at complete random.

do you see how these tests can provide feed-back on breeding decisions.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com
 
#56 ·
The Herax dog , to my thinking does to much displacement activity , he circles , he sniffs the ground when action is taking place that requires his attention (mild avoidance) .
Yeah, I wondered about that--is it that the dogs knows all this stuff isn't real, isn't serious? Is he just sort of blowing off the exercise as not worth his time, or is he truly showing avoidance of the threat? To me, it looks like the dog doesn't even percieve a threat, but I'd like to see him just a bit more watchful, and a bit more "into" his handler.

I assume this dog was titled at the time the video was shot. If so, then I think it's remarkable that the dog didn't bite the "spooky" person.

I wonder how this dog would behave in a truly dangerous situation, with a person threatening to do real harm? Nothing seems to really phase him in this video, but I get the impression he isn't taking it seriously because he knows it is all a game... silly humans. Don't they know I can tell the difference between a real threat and a friend pretending to be threatening? What exactly do they want me to do here? :cool: There are a few points at which the dog just looks sort of confused.

Overall, the shortcomings the dog shows in the video is the kind of the temperament "problem" I would like to see more of in the breed. :) Most GSDs have a problem being overly reactive, easily spooked, fear-aggressive. This dog seems to have the opposite problem (if you could call it a problem).

I would take this dog home with me in a hot second. He shows many things I'd like to see in a companion dog.
 
#57 ·
Let me qualify my Answer to Wildo about the dogs reaction when released.....at that point ( when dog got to two ghosts), the dog didn't perceive a threat to respond to at that point.. Now let me address what I saw while the ghosts were advancing.....I saw a dog that was unsure, going into subtle avoidance behaviors,( hair raised, sniffing of ground, backing up to handler for support, among some other things.) Just wanted to clarify that my response to Wildo about actions after release of leash, did not preclude me from reading the former aspects.
I do not see this as a sporty type dog, could definitely have more natural aggression, good suspicion. I like this dog as a dog that would do well in good training academy....definitely not a point dog. Would love to see him really stressed and how he channeled it....could see two different responses that may occur. Interesting!.......much different dog from the one inSch routine....not as strong to me. That's just my observation.
 
#58 ·
Btw, I do not think that all dogs in Sweden are perfect, or ole school. Of course they have some sporty dogs in the country, and they have some older lines that are now five, six, generations of breeding internally for a less extreme dog. I can't explain a balanced dog, but I know it when I see it, and many of the people I respect in working dogs understand what I mean when I use it. Probably not a good word to use in open forum:cool:.
 
#59 ·
the spooky person poses no threat , he is just weird and unusual. You wouldn't want the dog to bite a person with a crutch, wearing a turban, in a wheelchair, there has to be a threat .

" Overall, the shortcomings the dog shows in the video is the kind of the temperament "problem" I would like to see more of in the breed. :) Most GSDs have a problem being overly reactive, easily spooked, fear-aggressive. This dog seems to have the opposite problem (if you could call it a problem)."

This is true !! agree totally, this dog doesn't care , he does appear to have sound nerves , wouldn't present so many of the issues of reactivity, nervousness, fear .

But for me I've been spoiled --- I really really want to have a natural partnership and capacity for a strong bond -- it makes training a breeze (genetic obedience) .
So I will take

mentality tests , I like this one , watch the quick recovery when the dog startles with the jumpsuit popping up. The dog did have some leaking and bit at the material . The evaluator wants to confirm something so he has the dog do two passes of the object -- dog Okay. He did really well with the two ghosts . The evaluator directed their approach as if he were a traffic cop . The dog always was out in front and paid attention to the approaching ghost . Good investigation after . Pretty dog .

this would be your counter point

it has been very interesting to sit watching natural reactions of these dogs

no spoken in my fields -- just coyotes

Carmen
 
#60 ·
the spooky person poses no threat , he is just weird and unusual. You wouldn't want the dog to bite a person with a crutch, wearing a turban, in a wheelchair, there has to be a threat .
Exactly. Which is why I liked the fact that the dog didn't automatically bite--especially if he had already been trained TO bite. It shows discrimination, bite inhibition, and the ability to keep a clear head. It's almost as though the dog understands what a real bite means to a human, and is treating his own bite like a loaded gun. Responsibly. I realize I'm on the verge of anthropomorphisizing here.

Reading it from a different perspective, you could say that the dog was dull, distracted, not wanting to engage, showing displacement/avoidance behaviors, and showing little interest in his own handler, running off into the woods by himself. He did come right back when called, but what was he doing noodling around in the woods when there were potential "threats" all around?

But what I really want to know is, where can I get a dog like this?
 
#61 ·
Thank you Cliff, Carmen, and Freestep for coming back with clarification. I have to agree with Freestep- I thought that sable dog looked good; I'd definitely take him. The issue with handler focus could just be a training issue. (I get that Carmen wants this to come naturally. Even so, it could be trained.)
 
#62 ·
My question was more directed at the poster from Sweden than you Cliff but it is always interesting to actually see what other people are calling "good dogs" or describing in certain ways, using certain terms. I know what balanced means to me, just not sure what it means to everyone else. I have learned that the dog terms mean surprisingly different things to different people. Becomes really clear how different, when you see the dogs they are talking about.


Still interesting in knowing how the first dog....or any of them actually, scored. Tried to watch the ones Carmen posted in her last post but for some reason, they are shutting my computer down. The ones I did watch, while the black one was better, didn't really impress me much. I wasn't thinking every dog in Sweden was perfect but so far, the best one was the Schutzhund dog. lol.


Now you are saying you'd like to test that dog further but you could do that with SchH dogs as well. Right? I see the dog for who he is there and what I see, ( first video, sable), I do not like and I am confident if I worked him with a sleeve on, I wouldn't like him there either. Of course, I could TRAIN him and make him look better but that would be against what people are claiming makes these Swedish dogs better, exposing the genetics. Or at least that is what I think people are saying. I can't really tell to be honest.


One thing I want to say here also. The first "scary person" wearing the skirt was absolutely no threat to the dog. You could see that VERY clearly in his behavior and his bark. Then we had the sheet people or "ghosts" and the dog was completely different. Cliff pointed that out as did Carmen. THIS, for me, is the difference in SchH. The dogs do not see a threat because of the way they are worked. The helper is more a friendly combatant and that is why we see what people are calling "too much prey" . Well, for me, this is not prey work that is the problem, the dogs are PLAYING. Prey has an element of seriousness in it and I have seen dogs with a ton of prey drive who also have very strong social aggression and nerves . You can see all of it when you work them CORRECTLY as the helper...meaning you present yourself as more of a threat or a bad guy. That is when you see some really impressive things come from the dogs.....when all that is in there genetically and someone can bring it out. The dogs on these videos, ( the ones I can see anyway), did not show enough strength of character if you ask me.

Just to be clear here, , I have worked as the helper and seen and handled dogs out of many of the great dogs mentioned over and over here. Enno Beilstein, Ulk Bungalow, Ajax Haus Dexel and Frei Gugge sons and daughters, Bernd grandsons, Valet grandsons, Marko sons, Urs and on and on . Almost all of those dogs, ( and some dogs I know that are alive now), would have shown a dramatically different behavior to those threats and they would have been capable of not biting as well. If a dog is half into it, it is easier to shut it off. That is how I viewed the dogs on the videos, along with a few other short comings and they all seemed more like puppies in their behaviors. Maybe they were all quite young but I still say the dogs I just mentioned, even the younger ones, would have handled it all with much more confidence and attitude. I am talking about the dogs from years ago since it sounded to me like people were saying the dogs from Sweden are of that type.


Frankly, I have seen the same types of dogs at SchH clubs, so, I am wondering what other people are seeing as the big difference here. Not just directing that question at you Cliff but you are welcome to answer if you so desire. Yes, these dogs are not all there is, just would like to see a dog of the SchH dog's caliber doing this test.
 
#63 ·
Vandal in my posts I provided other dogs to highlight the short comings of the Herax dog, who I did not like. He would not be for me . Too much avoidance activity , his threshold is lower . You can see this on the second youtube of Herax on the physical exam where the dog jumps out of surprise and squeezes back to the handler. Seems the only time he connects with handler is when under pressure or fear.
Even so he is a better PET option .
The second dog was better than Herax and the third dog , the black dog was a complete failure , going into total avoidance not even having trust in handler when handler stands quietly in close contact with the hanging blue jumper suit.
The best dog is the schutzhund dog and that is the one I said I would take.

I probably mentioned this before . I had two dogs that were being evaluated. Silva - the younger and Stark older by about 6 weeks. I believe Silva was about 9 months . We got the call to go out for evaluation - trainers and handlers from both US LE and Can LE would be present. We drove out with instructions to meet at a coffee shop and from there we were to follow to a location that was undisclosed . This way there was the certainty that the dogs had no chance to visit , get worked , feel comfortable in an area made familiar to them. We met . Then followed , a drive of about another 15 minutes . Without a brake , dog is asked to come out of car and track , stranger track , 1/2 mile , laid earlier in the morning - man at end . I can tell you Mike was running behind the dog who was quick and accurate . Bing . Good impression.
Next dog , other location , same thing.

Next test , general retrieval, engagement with strangers , hunting for ball tossed into brush , hidden , hunt / search , with distractions . Both dogs good.

Next dogs taken , one at a time, with stranger handler who without being social marches along a path deeper into wooded area where dog is tied out . There are observers in place but hidden. The dog is left by self. Handler comes out of clearing . Then events happen. Staged joggers - neutral , bicyclists, neutral , gun fire - distance, then hostile approach and confrontation. We hear dog barking , nice and deep , (good).
Both dogs pass.
We are told result as evaluator reads it out to the entire group.
Break for coffee , then head off to other location .Now we are working in buildings . We are at the auto mechanics , dog taken by strange handler into work area , air pistons going , things clanging , being dropped. All the noises and activity of a busy mechanics .
Next was to take dog into adjoining windowless building which was in total darkness and dog walked into it then up a metal stair case and cat walk along one side of wall. Then when back on ground level surprise movement .

at the end both dogs were wanted , one of those flip a coin to make a decision. After a few moments of talk the older of the two Stark was selected , on our advice , because of his advantage of being older and better by that for the certification course which was to begin shortly after. That was Stark - about 9 months https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/successes-references/carmspack-stark-success-page

The other dog Silva later became https://sites.google.com/site/countrylanepsd/successes-references/carmspack-sylva
He was selected , trained and certified by the same trainer , evaluator / certifier as Stark .
The dogs were related as there dams were sisters to each other, and their grandmother was sister to Untitled which was a "click" with several other littermates going into law enforcement (USA). That department started off with Flint Untitled
who made an arrest inside a mall , during the Christmas season -- having to track down the person in this highly contaminated hard surface track - finding the man after hours of thorough hunting , up and down the different levels , going into washrooms , service areas, behind scenes in the food court, into the utility rooms where the mechanics of the building area -- dog never relented in his drive and then finds a store front with the steel mesh curtain down , insists this is the spot , can't be pulled off , strong indication. They see that there was enough give for a person to shimmy through bottom . Dog finds person hiding under table with season drapery from table top display to floor . The man and dog meet face to face. If this were a dog who had to discharge his pent up energy in finding the guy, the man would not have had a face. This was in all the local papers.

I want to know how do you get your whites so white?
Is it Persil?

Carmen
 
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