American showline and German Showline confusion

[Narny]

I am trying to decide which breeder I want to go with and from what I read and the from the advice of others here and else where it may be best for me to get a dog that isnt a work line for a number of reasons but really dont need to get into that here.

So I am looking at different dogs and realize that I have NO IDEA how to really tell the difference between a German showline and American showline.

I know that the American show lines will be simply bred for their "pretty ness" which I want to stay FAR away from.

I am really confused. How do you know the difference between American show and German show?

For example I am looking at these breeders and they have what I "think" is German show lines and German work lines. I just want to make sure that the German show lines arent bred for looks here in the states and/or end up with a necrotic dog.

http://www.rallhaus.com/Pages/Litters.aspx

[martemchik]

None of the dogs are bred for looks. Some are bred for the conformation ring and others are bred for "pet markets." German lines are bred with more drive, but drive is not always something people are ready for. What exactly are you looking for in a dog? Many people on this forum will advocate working lines, I own one, but I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't think about American lines. They are calmer, "mature" quicker, and are easier to own (generally don't require as much to do). There are plenty of American line dogs getting their UDX in AKC obedience and doing agility. They aren't all just bred to look pretty in the show ring. While this is the preferred method of titling your breeding stock in the United States, its because everyone wants a "champion dog" so they can tell their friends about it, most people have no idea what a CD, CDX, UD, UDX is.

American show lines are generally black and tan, German are black and red. There are some other differences but that's the main way to tell the difference for a novice person.

[Chris Wild]

The easiest way is to look at the dogs and their names.
German show lines will be black and red/tan saddle patterned dogs, with German sounding names, and usually V or VA (conformation titles) before their name and SchH or HGH titles after their name, hips probably certified through the A stamp.

American show lines come in all colors, will have American sounding names, conformation ratings will be Ch (Championship), they may or may not have any titles after their name, if there are hip ratings they will probably be through OFA.

[EJQ]

Hi there - quite honestly I think you should spend a little time researching the forums. There is a mint of information concerning the difference between the American & German lines.

GENERALLY speaking - - - I stress generally
Color: German working lines are usually dark sable in color. German show lines tend to be Black & Red. American show lines are usually Black & Tan but can come in many colors.
Confirmation: American show lines are more streamlined with steeply angled rears and are sometimes cow hocked. German show lines are more bulky & blocky, square in the rear end and are sometimes "roach backed". I often refer to them as Thoroughbreds vs Quarter Horses.
Temperament: Usually depends on the individual dog - breeding, training, socialization etc.

In terms of appearance you'll recognize the differences once you visit some web sites.

[Emoore]

Originally Posted by Narny

I know that the American show lines will be simply bred for their "pretty ness" which I want to stay FAR away from.

I would argue that someone who can't tell the difference between the lines doesn't really have the right to be insulting any of them. How do you know enough about them to insult them if you don't even know which ones they are? Just going by what somebody said on the internet? There are plenty of American breeders producing solid, healthy, stable American Show line dogs.

Sorry, it's just one of my pet peeves and it happens a lot. "I know I don't want a show line because they're crippled and ugly and have sloped backs. By the way can you tell me if this is a show line?"

[Narny]

Originally Posted by Emoore

I would argue that someone who can't tell the difference between the lines doesn't really have the right to be insulting any of them. How do you know enough about them to insult them if you don't even know which ones they are? Just going by what somebody said on the internet? There are plenty of American breeders producing solid, healthy, stable American Show line dogs.

Sorry, it's just one of my pet peeves and it happens a lot. "I know I don't want a show line because they're crippled and ugly and have sloped backs. By the way can you tell me if this is a show line?"

This wasnt about insulting any one or their breeding habits. I thought this was simply just a matter of course. Of all the research and reading I have done I have never come across and wasnt aware of nor have I ever heard anyone anywhere say anything positive about the America breeding of GSDs. Of course this is what "I" consider good so its a personal opinion I suppose.

Reading over and over that the breeders breed for confirmation, in my mind confirmation = pretty.

I will also add that not being able to tell the difference isnt the same as being unable to read over and over everywhere that American GSD's are not bred to be the standard and the standard is what I am looking for. I want a dog thats bred for its brains not its looks. If thats insulting I am sorry but that certainly was not my intent.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Narny

This wasnt about insulting any one or their breeding habits. I thought this was simply just a matter of course. Of all the research and reading I have done I have never come across and wasnt aware of nor have I ever heard anyone anywhere say anything positive about the America breeding of GSDs. Of course this is what "I" consider good so its a personal opinion I suppose.

Reading over and over that the breeders breed for confirmation, in my mind confirmation = pretty.

Where are you doing your research? Get off the computer and go to some shows, go to some GSD/training clubs. What is it that you're looking for in a dog? You said yourself, you don't want a dog that has the drive to work, then why look for a German dog when American lines can bring you everything you look for.

Conformation is how closely the dog matches the breed standard, a good conforming dog will be able to do everything that is asked of it and more. Conformation helps with movement and the point is to not waste any motion/energy. Most of the GSDs in the United States come from American lines, these dogs are perfect for pet homes and if you go through the right breeder they are just as healthy as any from a German line.

[Narny]

Originally Posted by martemchik

Where are you doing your research? Get off the computer and go to some shows, go to some GSD/training clubs. What is it that you're looking for in a dog? You said yourself, you don't want a dog that has the drive to work, then why look for a German dog when American lines can bring you everything you look for.

Conformation is how closely the dog matches the breed standard, a good conforming dog will be able to do everything that is asked of it and more. Conformation helps with movement and the point is to not waste any motion/energy. Most of the GSDs in the United States come from American lines, these dogs are perfect for pet homes and if you go through the right breeder they are just as healthy as any from a German line.

I have no problem with a dog bred to work however people have expressed concern given my situation ie younger kids and being new to keeping gsd's. I take that concern and the advice given to me seriously. I dont know nearly as much as most of the people here and I acknowledge that and take it seriously so I look for a dog that would best suit our family. There are still traits that I want in my dog such as willingness to work/train and a good house dog not to mention willingness and ability to protect if something happened that it was needed.

Work doesnt bother me at all I simply want to insure that I listen to the advice that is give.

Man I have stepped in it havent I.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Narny

Man I have stepped in it havent I.

It's not that...its just the way you phrased your first post. And you're getting this from people that own working lines, just wait until someone with ASL sees this post. ASL get picked on a lot on the forum and its quite tiring to hear it from people that haven't seen the dogs and can't even tell the difference.

All ASLs will be trained just fine. I belong to a GSD club and 95% of the dogs in there are ASL, there are many with obedience titles. In regards to children, I would trust any WELL BRED line with kids. ASLs even more so because they are calmer and not as crazy as a driven German puppy is. If the dog is properly socialized around children from a young age, it will have no issue with kids. Most German shepherds will protect when needed, this has nothing to do with their lines and everything to do with the actual dog, but don't expect them to get protective until they are 2-3. If you're really worried about children, your best bet might be to rescue a tested dog. Or contact breeders that are retiring some of their breeding stock and are looking for homes for those dogs. A puppy can go either way but with an adult you will know when you adopt if it is good with kids or not.

[DianaM]

Narny, there are lots of good German showline dogs out there but they will need lots of exercise and training and outlets. Look at Liesje's Nikon (member on the board). Nikon is a German showline, a very handsome dog, but also clearly needs a job and does very well at all the activities Lies does with him. There are lots of working line dogs out there that have no jobs other than family pet but they get LOTS of mental and physical exercise. Yes, lots of American show or pet lines are softer and more sedate, more like golden retrievers but many do need jobs and excel at agility or obedience or herding. Bottom line, yes you may want from one GSD type or another but working or show or pet, you are getting a German shepherd dog and you do need to be prepared for a dog that won't accept a half hour walk a day and a few minutes of training a few days each week. Just make sure you're prepared for a dog that won't ever let you forget you own one.

Make a list of traits you like in a dog and a list of traits you dislike. BE HONEST about your schedule and your willingness to commit time, money, and gas to training your dog. Are you resolute that you do not want to participate in any dog sports or did you see an agility video on youtube the other day and you thought it looked like something fun to do? Do you want a dog that will be a pal to everyone or do you prefer a dog who doesn't give a rip about anyone but you and your family? Do you want to be continuously challenged to be a better dog trainer or will you train because you have to, not because you want to and enjoy it? Do you want a dog you can take anywhere that will allow dogs or do you prefer "just a dog" that hangs out at home and in the yard? Questions like these and your list of good/bad traits can be taken to breeders of the different lines and they can tell you if their lines will be a good match, recommend you to other breeders within the type if not, recommend you to the other breed types, or tell you that you may not be a good candidate for the breed.

If you want to get a better idea for what you're looking at, gather some of the breeder websites you're looking at and post them and we can tell you what lines they are. Ralhaus has working and show litters.

V Nord II Suché Lazce - German Shepherd Dog
This is the male at the top of the page from the Ralhaus link you posted. Notice how the dogs in the pedigree look almost identical? That's a quirk of German showlines. Yes, you will see working titles, but if you watch the working portion of a sieger show and compare it to the Schutzhund nationals (which you can, thanks to YouTube), you will generally see a huge difference in how the dogs are worked and how the dogs react. There is a lot more to it than just that statement and it has been thoroughly discussed in other threads on this board.

V1, CAC, CACIB, P1 Samer z Kurimskeho haje - German Shepherd Dog
The male from the bottom of the Ralhaus page you linked. See how they all look different? There are sables, a black, and a black and tan. All sorts of working titles.

SEL CH Kaleefs Geneva Aeval-Achtung - German Shepherd Dog
A very famous American showline dog. Just like with the German showlines, there is a lot of uniformity in type (but the German dogs just look Xeroxed to me). ROMs and Ch. designations dominate, you will see AKC titles like CD, CDX, RN, etc.