American blood lines VS. German lines

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by carmspack

sorry , then, I think others got confused also.

Temperament is everything .

Not quite! Good standard GSD temperament is "required but not sufficient", as my old philosophy was fond of saying!

To be breed worthy, a GSD needs both good temperament PLUS good conformation (as well as good health!). And of course the genotype required to pass on their good temp., health, AND conformation!

[Kaz]

Ok, I have a historical question :

Why did people start to breed in the sloped back, smaller size and smaller heads? (Reference to video of dogs compared from 1940's to present).

I personally dont find these features attractive in a dog.

[Lucy Dog]

Originally Posted by Kaz

Ok, I have a historical question :

Why did people start to breed in the sloped back, smaller size and smaller heads? (Reference to video of dogs compared from 1940's to present).

I personally dont find these features attractive in a dog.

From a common sense standpoint and I may be wrong... the sloped or roached back is strictly for aesthetics. It makes the dog look more graceful in the ring as he/she prances around... kind of like they're floating.

As for a smaller head... I don't think they are. A lot of the the DDR and west german show line dogs have pretty large heads in general. Thick bone too.

As for the actual size... I don't think they are too. German Shepherds are not and never were extra large dogs. Visit an "old fashioned straight back" breeder's website and you might get that idea, but GSD's of today in general have not been bred down in size. If anything, it's the opposite.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Kaz

Ok, I have a historical question :

Why did people start to breed in the sloped back, smaller size and smaller heads? (Reference to video of dogs compared from 1940's to present).

I personally dont find these features attractive in a dog.

Because these were the dogs doing most of the winning in the ring.

Just like today the extremely high energy seems to win a lot in the high level ScH competitions 9or so our training Director tells us!).

[panzerghost]

My pup is a straight back white GSD. His father was an american straight back line his mother was imported from Germany (both breed for sheep heading). As great as my dog is I don't think he would be able to make it in military/police work. I have seen many angled back GSDs that had a much better temperament than mine sad to say.

[Corona]

IMO, people focusing so much about the difference between working and show lines is what is hurting the breed. The GSD should be the GSD, with the temperment, working ability, structure, and health all being equally important. Over looking the perfect structure just because the dog has great working ability is just as bad as over looking the working ability for a dog that has the perfect look. If you are actually breeding for the right purpose, which is to better the breed then we should be trying to combine these qualities and not striving for one or the other. Not doing this is why you end up with the dogs that get the over angulation, or temperment problems. It's sad that you have to really do your homework to be able to go out and find a good purebread GSD, because the average person with 2 registered GSD's can breed them. You can't blame people for questioning the American GSD with the poor breeding restrictions the AKC has, but not every German line is perfect either.

[cliffson1]

Give me examples of people breeding perfect structure with working temperament....I'm just curious. It sounds real nice when read, but when I look at the history of the breed and the early dogs that the breed was formulated from....I don't see perfect structure. For a working dog, form has to follow function. If not it is not a working dog. Function does not require the same form in this breed!!!!! But winning in the form ring requires the same type....the equal need premise is flawed and always has been. This is not a beauty breed and should never allow beauty to equal merit. UNLESS the beauty is in the merit!!!

[Courtney]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

Give me examples of people breeding perfect structure with working temperament....I'm just curious. It sounds real nice when read, but when I look at the history of the breed and the early dogs that the breed was formulated from....I don't see perfect structure. For a working dog, form has to follow function. If not it is not a working dog. Function does not require the same form in this breed!!!!! But winning in the form ring requires the same type....the equal need premise is flawed and always has been. This is not a beauty breed and should never allow beauty to equal merit. UNLESS the beauty is in the merit!!!

Cliff, when did the "look" of the showlines come into the picture like my boy (he's west german showlines)? Going back and looking at older pics of GSD I don't see any like him in appearance...so I know somewhere something changed.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Courtney

Cliff, when did the "look" of the showlines come into the picture like my boy (he's west german showlines)? Going back and looking at older pics of GSD I don't see any like him in appearance...so I know somewhere something changed.

And there you go, everyone jumps on the American Showline for changing the look. But it was the Germans that did it first. And I'm willing to bet it happened right at the time the breed was developed because as soon as the breed was developed, the working dog became the house dog. Dog shows became prevelant and people bred for look rather than working ability.

Look at what the iron curtain did to the breed, a country was split and that caused quite the difference in West/East dogs. When a breed is as popular as this one, and its spread all over not just a continent but the whole world, there are bound to be differences. The same stock isn't used and each country/area develops their own opinions of what is beautiful and what should be bred for. I mean look at this forum, we can't even come to an agreement on what is right, why would we expect anything different from the rest of the world?

[Courtney]

Originally Posted by martemchik

And there you go, everyone jumps on the American Showline for changing the look. But it was the Germans that did it first. And I'm willing to bet it happened right at the time the breed was developed because as soon as the breed was developed, the working dog became the house dog. Dog shows became prevelant and people bred for look rather than working ability.

Look at what the iron curtain did to the breed, a country was split and that caused quite the difference in West/East dogs. When a breed is as popular as this one, and its spread all over not just a continent but the whole world, there are bound to be differences. The same stock isn't used and each country/area develops their own opinions of what is beautiful and what should be bred for. I mean look at this forum, we can't even come to an agreement on what is right, why would we expect anything different from the rest of the world?

Just so everyone knows...I am NOT joining this debate but was honestly curious! LOL