German Shepherd studbook shows pure wolves used as founders of the breed?

Germanshepherdlova · 12-30-2011, 12:13 AM

I was surfing the web today and came across this.

"It is thought by many that the original German Shepherd studbook shows several pure wolves were used as founders of the breed. Captain Max von Stephanitz, in his quest to produce the perfect working dog, used European herding dogs, including his favourite dog Horand von Grafrath, previously named named Hektor Linksrhein, who was allegedly one-quarter wolf. All GSD's can be traced back to Hektor. In the 1900's von Stephanitz wrote a book “The German Shepherd in Word and Picture”, in it he requested that breeders no longer include pure wolves in their breeding programs. (In subsequent reprints, all references to wolves were removed)."

The above is a copy and paste from this source-Wolfdogs - Snowdog

I was under the impression that GSD's did not have wolf blood-but then many refer to them as the wolf dog which is the reason why I looked into this. Do you agree or disagree with the GSD being part wolf?

Freestep · 12-30-2011, 12:36 AM

From what I have read, there were allegations of wolf crosses, but who knows? Basically, Stephanitz said he didn't want any wolf blood (or any more wolf blood) to be introduced into the gene pool.

Some breeders of wolf hybrids like to use this little snippet to justify their own shenanigans. As if to say, "See, even the German Shepherd, which everyone loves, is part wolf, so why shouldn't we breed wolfdogs too?"

People have since crossed GSDs and wolves under different breed names... Sarloos Wolfhound, Czech wolfdog, etc. The idea was to bring in hardier health genetics, but these dogs are reportedly useless for any kind of serious work due to their nervous and unpredictable temperaments.

ChristenHolden · 12-30-2011, 12:39 AM

HMMMMmm Very Interesting!! I like it.

Germanshepherdlova · 12-30-2011, 01:58 AM

A couple weeks ago my son watched a National Geographic program about wolves and he called me and said-Brutus looks just like a wolf on this show. Then he told me-I knew that dog had wolf in him. After reading this I am inclined to believe that is true. There is a picture on that link of a dog that is half wolf and half GSD-he is beautiful, and looks exactly like many sable GSD's that I have seen-there is almost no difference from what I can see.

nitemares · 12-30-2011, 06:47 AM

GSDs were are called wolf dogs here in Egypt to this day. Maybe there's reason why. When I was younger, much younger, I always thought that GSDs were originally domesticated wolves.

Mrs.K · 12-30-2011, 07:02 AM

As far as I remember, they have tried to cross wolves in but those dogs were so unpredictable that they couldn't use them so they pretty much disregarded that part of the breeding.

**jocoyn** · 12-30-2011, 07:59 AM

I recall a huge mitochondrial DNA study a few years back showing pugs are more closely related to wolves than GSDs. Mitochondrial DNA would only catch the mother line though.

I know the only references I saw were to one of the parents of Horand v Grafrath (sp?) being part wolf but I don't know enough about that. If so it was certainly very far back.

hattifattener · 12-30-2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitemares

GSDs were are called wolf dogs here in Egypt to this day.

yep,it's common name for this breed in LV either.
wolfdog.
but it just describes their appearance,i think.

martemchik · 12-30-2011, 09:22 AM

I'm from Latvia and have never heard wolfdog. Still have family there and I believe the popular term is "ovcharka" lol. But I might be wrong. The Nova: Dogs Decoded special compared the skulls of the wolf and the GSD and they were very similar compared to a wolf and a terrier, but that's clear to anyone that looks at them. Maybe originally there was wolf in there, but that is thousands of generations ago so I wouldn't even consider it relevant. Just looking at the size of a wolf and a GSD its pretty easy to dismiss any considerable amount of wolf in our dogs today.

hattifattener · 12-30-2011, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martemchik

I'm from Latvia and have never heard wolfdog. Still have family there and I believe the popular term is "ovcharka" lol. But I might be wrong. The Nova: Dogs Decoded special compared the skulls of the wolf and the GSD and they were very similar compared to a wolf and a terrier, but that's clear to anyone that looks at them. Maybe originally there was wolf in there, but that is thousands of generations ago so I wouldn't even consider it relevant. Just looking at the size of a wolf and a GSD its pretty easy to dismiss any considerable amount of wolf in our dogs today.

hey!!!

but "ovcharka" or "nemetskaya ovcharka" is Russian name.
Latvian is "vilku suns".

12-30-2011, 12:13 AM	#1 (permalink)
Germanshepherdlova Knighted Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: USA Posts: 2,935	German Shepherd studbook shows pure wolves used as founders of the breed? I was surfing the web today and came across this. "It is thought by many that the original German Shepherd studbook shows several pure wolves were used as founders of the breed. Captain Max von Stephanitz, in his quest to produce the perfect working dog, used European herding dogs, including his favourite dog Horand von Grafrath, previously named named Hektor Linksrhein, who was allegedly one-quarter wolf. All GSD's can be traced back to Hektor. In the 1900's von Stephanitz wrote a book “The German Shepherd in Word and Picture”, in it he requested that breeders no longer include pure wolves in their breeding programs. (In subsequent reprints, all references to wolves were removed)." The above is a copy and paste from this source-Wolfdogs - Snowdog I was under the impression that GSD's did not have wolf blood-but then many refer to them as the wolf dog which is the reason why I looked into this. Do you agree or disagree with the GSD being part wolf? __________________ You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Germa...96574693743892

12-30-2011, 12:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
Freestep Knighted Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Northern California Posts: 3,087	From what I have read, there were allegations of wolf crosses, but who knows? Basically, Stephanitz said he didn't want any wolf blood (or any more wolf blood) to be introduced into the gene pool. Some breeders of wolf hybrids like to use this little snippet to justify their own shenanigans. As if to say, "See, even the German Shepherd, which everyone loves, is part wolf, so why shouldn't we breed wolfdogs too?" People have since crossed GSDs and wolves under different breed names... Sarloos Wolfhound, Czech wolfdog, etc. The idea was to bring in hardier health genetics, but these dogs are reportedly useless for any kind of serious work due to their nervous and unpredictable temperaments. __________________ Luka von Sontausen, CD Vinca von Sontausen, CGC Freestep's Beluga Whale, BWD

12-30-2011, 12:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
ChristenHolden Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: South Eastern, Oklahoma, USA Posts: 1,316	HMMMMmm Very Interesting!! I like it. __________________ ~Christen BELLA~GSD BATISTA~SHAR PEI BANDIT~CHI/YORKIE GABE~RAT TERRIE/CORGIE ANGLE~RAT TERRIER/CORGIE PEPPER~RAT TERRIER HONEY~CHIHUHUHA RUSTY~PAPILLION OLIVER~MUTT CHEWIE~POM MIX Levi~PAP/CHI Champ~PAP/CHI 11 CATS 1 TURTLE~

12-30-2011, 01:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
Germanshepherdlova Knighted Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: USA Posts: 2,935	A couple weeks ago my son watched a National Geographic program about wolves and he called me and said-Brutus looks just like a wolf on this show. Then he told me-I knew that dog had wolf in him. After reading this I am inclined to believe that is true. There is a picture on that link of a dog that is half wolf and half GSD-he is beautiful, and looks exactly like many sable GSD's that I have seen-there is almost no difference from what I can see. __________________ You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Germa...96574693743892

12-30-2011, 06:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
nitemares Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Egypt Posts: 412	GSDs were are called wolf dogs here in Egypt to this day. Maybe there's reason why. When I was younger, much younger, I always thought that GSDs were originally domesticated wolves. __________________ Nadine Tamtam - Egyptian Mau Dante (Dumpty) ze Stribrneho kamene (9-9-2011) Juventus - GSD (RIP) Animal Aid Egypt

12-30-2011, 07:02 AM	#6 (permalink)
Mrs.K Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 6,381	As far as I remember, they have tried to cross wolves in but those dogs were so unpredictable that they couldn't use them so they pretty much disregarded that part of the breeding.

12-30-2011, 07:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
jocoyn Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,036	I recall a huge mitochondrial DNA study a few years back showing pugs are more closely related to wolves than GSDs. Mitochondrial DNA would only catch the mother line though. I know the only references I saw were to one of the parents of Horand v Grafrath (sp?) being part wolf but I don't know enough about that. If so it was certainly very far back. __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Grim (Grimmy Bear) & Beau (Bo-dee man) Waiting at the Bridge: Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

12-30-2011, 09:22 AM	#9 (permalink)
martemchik Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,043	I'm from Latvia and have never heard wolfdog. Still have family there and I believe the popular term is "ovcharka" lol. But I might be wrong. The Nova: Dogs Decoded special compared the skulls of the wolf and the GSD and they were very similar compared to a wolf and a terrier, but that's clear to anyone that looks at them. Maybe originally there was wolf in there, but that is thousands of generations ago so I wouldn't even consider it relevant. Just looking at the size of a wolf and a GSD its pretty easy to dismiss any considerable amount of wolf in our dogs today.

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