Opinions on two breedings in Holland

[robk]

The breeder of my dog's dam is putting together these two breedings for 2012. They both look interesting to me because they are with stud dogs that I really like. I would be interested in getting some feed back from some of the experts on this board. I am not sure if I will be able to get one of these pups but they would be used for schutzhund and hopefully competitive at a very high level.

Here is the first:

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

and this is the second one:

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

(I hope these links work right. This is the first time I have done this!)

Thanks!
Rob

[BlackthornGSD]

Originally Posted by robk

The breeder of my dog's dam is putting together these two breedings for 2012. They both look interesting to me because they are with stud dogs that I really like. I would be interested in getting some feed back from some of the experts on this board. I am not sure if I will be able to get one of these pups but they would be used for schutzhund and hopefully competitive at a very high level.

Here is the first:

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

and this is the second one:

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

(I hope these links work right. This is the first time I have done this!)

Thanks!
Rob

I would be somewhat uncomfortable with the linebreeding in the first litter--in particular, the 3-3 on Mary vh Pixner (who was herself closely linebred-- http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=307770 ) and the 4-4 on Ernst--as far as hips. Ernst is a very closely linebred dog as well (making him a strong producer of his own type) with an HDZ of 99 (SG Ernst vom Weinbergblick - German Shepherd Dog). The mom doesn't have a hip rating on PDB, so I'd want to be comfortable with her hip status before looking at such a breeding. In general, with so much linebreeding throughout the pedigree, I begin to be concerned about overall vigor and health of the puppies--although, of course, they might be completely fine--especially if the parents have been carefully screened for health issues.

Also, it looks to me like this breeding pulls in a lot of aggression and hardness, too--Nick H., Half v Ruhbachtal (linebred), Timmy (linebred), Mink/Lewis (linebred), Karlo, and lots of lines back to Gildo.

These could end up fantastic puppies--the pedigree reads like a who's who of the top workingline dogs of the past 15 years--but the pedigree is heavily weighted toward hardness, aggression, and reactivity. Without spending time with and watching the parents while working and in regular interactions, I have to say that on paper, it is not a breeding that attracts me.

The other breeding is linebred on a top hip producer who is also known for producing steady and strong temperaments (Aly). It's a better balanced combination of bloodlines, with very good working dogs with lots of drive and proven schutzhund success in the ancestors. I don't know either of the parents well, so I'd want to research them further, but if I liked them, this could be a very attractive breeding, IMO.

[robk]

Thanks for your input Christine!

[cliffson1]

Christine, I think your analysis is spot on!!! Personally, I would love a puppy from the first breeding even with the valid concerns you brought up....but the breeding with Aly is definitely the "safer" breeding overall.

[carmspack]

I like the first combination myself . Brings in virtues that are not so common anymore . I like Ax Schindengraben who brings in two of my favourites Eros Busecker Schloss and Arthus Lunsholz . Even Fero brings in herding through Fee Kirschental . Add Racker Itztal, and his sire Pirol Kirschental.
Lewis Malatesta , good Bernd Lierberg , and Pushkas Haus Himpel - again to Bernd and an old herding resource . This from Ernst who also has Uwe Kirschental and Arthus Lunsholz - real old herding genetics. Fenja Pixner - Bernd Lierberg , Mike Bungalow, Uwe Kirschental. so far we have covered Sid Pixner who has my thumbs up ! Good conservation of working lines here . They are balanced for utility and make sense .
Generally I would not go out of my way to include Yoschy but here he is in for just the right touch and contributes positive. Yoschy is a dog that recently has been linebred on in pedigrees that are built for "hot" reactive and that pulls the rug from under the feet of stability . Gesha , Racker , Uran brother to Uwe Kirschental and Bernd . Half has Marko Cellerland and Racker Itztal . That at a quick glance covers the sire Kinski , who I like . I believe based on the pedigree, that the he and hopefully his progeny when properly paired should be easy and willing students in training , be versatile in application of talents , be able to deal with real every day to day life . There are dogs , many which I have mentioned which are known for intelligence .
The dam has an interesting pedigree also . Solid . Strong . Arec - Betty Bonsdorf - Kerry Stahlhammer.
Another Gildo . Repeat information on Mary (Ernst and Fenja) . Nick Heiligenbosch - repeat Half , and then add double Gildo through Ina Gard . Continuing we have Arko Stoffelblick brother to Arek and Alf Stoffelblick . Coming to the end Connie Kornerplatz with Racker . Eros and Valet and Harras Busecker Schloss who has Faust twice - and that dog is worthy of a study all on his own. This is an excellent conservation of serious valuable working dogs expertly put together by Alfred Hahn "the" Busecker Schloss . Even to the very end bottom maternal line there is strength . Bernd sits there.
There are no holes in the dam. No compensation, just a continual build of strong service dogs. I would imagine a great deal of self confident dogs , maybe a little harder as far as directability , but clear .
I really like this pedigree . I would take one , I would like to work a dog from this combination. I also think there is much to offer for future breeding .

The first litter as soon as I opened the link I was interested and spent the time. Immediate visceral response .
The second combination I opened I saw , I skimmed . It is good , but the interest to dig into the background was not there. I prefer litter number one by far. Litter number two is not as grounded for me .
limited on time , got to be somewhere soon so maybe a more thorough look after . Gut response , immediate, number one.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[cliffson1]

LOL.....that's my idea of how a reputable breeder looks at a breeding....nice job Carmen and Christine

[robk]

Carmen, your analysis was a very interesting read! Thank you!

I have another possible pair from this kennel but am not sure how to post it since the sire is not not on pedigree database.

It would be DODGE KIRIDESJA x Dora von der holzinger.

If anyone can figure out how to pair these two, i think it would be a interesting combination as well.

Rob

[BlackthornGSD]

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

I like this stud dog--I like the hardness there and I like to see GSDs doing well in KNPV.

But I don't see any compelling reason to match with this female--as far as bloodline-wise. Might go well, might not. Would depend a lot on the individual parents. Very little linebreeding in this pedigree and not that much backmassing on any one dog--a little bit on Gildo through Arek v Stoffelblick, more on Umsa; some 6th generation linebreeding on Fero. For example, neither parent is linebred, and the pairing does very little linebreeding, not even on a 6 or 7 generation look. This means that the puppies will be a bit more shotgun scattered--less uniform, more variance in type, temperament, and drives, etc. The benefit, however, can be fewer health problems--depending, as always, on the parents.

At the same time, both pedigrees are packed full of very good dogs. Should produce some very strong, high-drive, and tough working dogs.

[BlackthornGSD]

Look at this breeding with that same stud dog by Haus Ming--

Zwinger Vom Haus Ming: Zucht von Dodge Kiridesja und Maxmara vom Haus Ming bei Working-dog.eu

This breeder inbreeds with great courage--and has done so with significant success.

In breeding Dodge to Maxmara v Haus Ming (Maxmara vom Haus Ming - working-dog.eu), it is breeding an Inox son to an Inox daughter. What's more, Maxmara is already linebred 2-3 on Nick H. (Inox being a Nick son.)

This type of breeding with reveal any recessives, which may require ruthless culling from the breeding program. But any healthy, sound pups should be strong producers of their own type/genetics. That means that the good pups should be great, but the "bad" pups run the risk of some significant problems with health issues.

[robk]

Christine, I have looked at that particular breeding before and, I as you are, I am way too concerned about the possible results of such close inbreeding. I am sure he as an agenda with breeding. He probably figures that he can get one good female out if it that he can then out cross with an interesting end result. But too me this is kind of scary. That said, I really like Dodge. He is one of the most gangster (as in hard core dog with his own swagger) that I have seen. It seems to me that German Shepherds have become way to soft in general so I am attracted to the ones that exude extreme toughness.

Thanks for your comments!
Rob