Reading a pedigree: you know, actually reading it...

[wildo]

GSDElsa's post this morning about abstracting specific behaviors/traits out of a pedigree pairing got me thinking about pedigrees in general. Often when I see some of the more seasoned people respond and critique a pedigree, they mention how they "saw xyz dog immediately."

There must be a "proper" approach to investigating a pedigree. Do I just start with the first generation, and follow the sire's line first sticking to the male lineage? Do I start at the oldest generations, literally scanning the 4th generation column vertically for both the dam and sire?

I mean- there must be an actual technique...

Further- what are you actually looking for? I'm amazed (actually- I'm quite blown away!) by how many dogs some of you seem to not just recognize, but actually describe in great detail. Not even just that dog, but that dog's progeny as well! "xyz was known for producing excellent hardness without too much civil," or "abc was a phenomenal hip improver with very few of her progeny ever scoring below OFA Good."

So when I am reading a pedigree- I should:

• Use some technique to follow the "tree" (start at left, start at right, follow sires, follow dams, etc)
• Look for 'key' dogs (how do I know what a 'key' dog is?)

Any tips?

[LaRen616]

I think they all use magic.

The pedigree experts on here are simply amazing.

[Liesje]

I think there is more to it than the pedigree, you have to have extensive knowledge of the dogs and how they have produced in various combinations and I think that is something that just comes with time and experience. For example I know of one dog that has produced some awesome progeny and others that have been total duds or just a hot mess, overly sharp/aggressive, histories of bites (outside of normal SchH work). There must be something to how this dog's genes are combined with others that either makes an awesome dog or a huge liability. I don't have the back-knowledge of the other lines/dogs/combos so I simply avoid this dog when looking for a puppy.

One thing I look at is linebreeding but not just the linebreeding that the pedigree database will show you. Sometimes the linebreeding is minimal but if you dig farther back you see that the minimal linebreeding is on dogs that were themselves heavily linebred and so on so I like to look much farther back than the first 3-4 generations.

[cliffson1]

Very good question!
First you have to accept there is any value to pedigree reading....for some people the dogs is what it is, (without consideration to the fact that usually the dog is one of 5 or6 in a litter and carries the same traits as the others except recessively), and for others its a combination, while others rely on pedigree pretty exclusively.
In answer to your question, IMO, the way you read a pedigree is reliant upon your knowledgebase of the breed, the dogs, the dog's performance, the dog's structure, and the dog's temperament. When you have a fairly concrete idea about all those aspects, both collectively(breed, structure, and temperament), and individually(dogs, temperament, and structure), then you have the foundation to ANALYZE the pedigree. Of course historical knowledge on production and performance in conjunction with the basic tenets of genetics helps a lot...lol.
Now this may be too complicated an explanation, but the really good pedigree people have these tools or ACCESS to this information in starting to figure things out.
As to how you take this information and apply it. This is also based on knowledgebase....because with many dogs or combinations you start at a certain "given" point and progress from there. The problem is people have a hard time dropping their likes, which often COLORS the areas they place the focus on the dog to assess the quality of the dog. To truly read pedigrees well, you have knowledge of the development of the siblings or at least an inkling of the siblings to know if the given structure or performance of the individual dog is consistent with that litter and thus representative of the breeding.
There's plenty more, For Me, but the more i write the more I think of....and I am pretty sure most people want the "fast foods" answer to this question.
One last thing, it is also important to know that the breed is made up of four different dogs with different traits attached to each....these traits are completely intermingled these days, but they are part of the breed and will never be bred out as long as the breed is purebred. This is important in understanding probabilites in the occurrence or reoccurrence of certain traits when pairing two dogs together.

[wildo]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

Very good question!

Thanks, but it sounds like this is a question that is most easily answered only with "it comes with years of experience- and not much you do will help you learn to read pedigrees without the years of experience..." Which honestly, that's pretty much what I expected to hear.

With that said, you also commented:

Originally Posted by cliffson1

One last thing, it is also important to know that the breed is made up of four different dogs with different traits attached to each....these traits are completely intermingled these days, but they are part of the breed and will never be bred out as long as the breed is purebred. This is important in understanding probabilites in the occurrence or reoccurrence of certain traits when pairing two dogs together.

...I did not know that. Can you share who the four dogs are and what their traits are? (Not intending to be a loaded question. Please don't feel the need to write a book... unless of course you want to!)

[Mrs.K]

Personally, I start in the fourth or fifth Generation, then I look back up until the 8-10th Generation before I work my way to the front.

Key dogs are dogs that are well known. In working line that would be Fero. Some people don't want Fero in the Pedigree so if they see Fero vom Zeutner Himmelreich, they disregard the dog without looking any further.

Yoschi, Troll, Torro, Gildo, Olko, Orry, Orlie, Askia, Pike, Asko, Umsa... those are just a few key names I am looking for. If you see any of those names within five generations you know whats in the back already and you can predict what the dog could be like.

So If I am looking for a dog, I am looking at the pedigrees and seek out what I want in my dog. Then I go there and look at the dog itself and if it doesn't have what I want in the dog, i move on.

However, it is important to keep an open mind. Sometimes you find what you want in the lesser known pedigrees. Pedigrees is mainly what sells the dogs, at least that is why breeders go to the champion dogs, those champions have a name and the breeders believe that they have a better chance in selling the puppies when they sired the litter with them. Sometimes it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the dog itself but it's the names in the pedigrees that matters. ESPECIALLY in the show line world.

Originally Posted by wildo

GSDElsa's post this morning about abstracting specific behaviors/traits out of a pedigree pairing got me thinking about pedigrees in general. Often when I see some of the more seasoned people respond and critique a pedigree, they mention how they "saw xyz dog immediately."

There must be a "proper" approach to investigating a pedigree. Do I just start with the first generation, and follow the sire's line first sticking to the male lineage? Do I start at the oldest generations, literally scanning the 4th generation column vertically for both the dam and sire?

I mean- there must be an actual technique...

Further- what are you actually looking for? I'm amazed (actually- I'm quite blown away!) by how many dogs some of you seem to not just recognize, but actually describe in great detail. Not even just that dog, but that dog's progeny as well! "xyz was known for producing excellent hardness without too much civil," or "abc was a phenomenal hip improver with very few of her progeny ever scoring below OFA Good."

So when I am reading a pedigree- I should:

• Use some technique to follow the "tree" (start at left, start at right, follow sires, follow dams, etc)
• Look for 'key' dogs (how do I know what a 'key' dog is?)

Any tips?

[Emoore]

Let me tell you how a kindergartner does it who's only learning to read pedigrees for her personal future needs.

When I meets a dog I like (not just seeing a picture on the internet), I try to get my hands on its pedigree. I usually don't pay much attention to the parents because I'm not likely to know anything about them. I read through the names of the grandparents back to the 6th generation. If I'm back in the 5th or sixth generation and I see a kennel name that rings a bell, I'll look back a bit farther to see if there are any dogs I recognize. I read downward, reading both parents, then back to the grandparents, then all the great-grandparents, etc. I try to form connections between the dogs that may not be readily available on a mating test. Maybe the dog isn't exactly linebred, but these two dogs are first cousins and those don't have the same parents or grandparents but they have all the same great-grandparents.. .

I'll talk to the owner to find out more about the dog. I might ask someone who knows, to tell me about the pedigree. Then I file all this away in a file cabinet in my head marked "Dogs."

Then maybe later I'll see somebody on the forums who has a dog who is closely related to the dog I was looking at. I'll shoot a PM to the owner to see what their impressions of that dog are, its health and temperament etc. Then I file that away.

I'm starting to build in my head a database of dogs I like, what ancestors they have in common, what the offspring looks like and acts like on the ground.

Hopefully in this fashion I'll be an expert on what I like in 4 or 5 years when it's time for another puppy. When it comes to what *you* like, you're on your own.

[GSDElsa]

I think the easiest way to even START with this process is to pinpoint the widely used dogs and go from there. Find what they are and are not known for...this can vary a lot, but just the general traits. Then when you see GSD's working--be nosey...ask who the parents are. Watch them work...take mental or written notes about things you're seeing...consider how training has played a part...then go home and look it up. See where the behaviors or nuances might come from.

I'm definitely still in kindergarte, but that's where I started learning. Internet research and videos to get an idea, then go watch dogs in different venues, etc.

It's funny...a trainer I work with has a dog who was/is very nice but had to retire early because of a back injury and is now a house dog. This dog's father is the trainers former competition dog. There is this funny "air kiss" thing that this dog does...I guess his dad did it too...and a bunch of the offspring of either the dog or his father do it too. Not a trait that has anything to do with workability, obviously...but it's really interesting to me that a slew of dogs owned by different people over 3 generations all have this silly mannerism.

[Mrs.K]

Also, there was a litter not to long ago and it is quite interesting to see and talk to people that have the pups out of the same litter and you hear that they all have pretty much the same issues and/or traits.

[lhczth]

I start by looking at the mother lines and not the sire lines. I want to see females that produced and are out of producers and follow the strong working lines back to the breed foundation. I look at the four females in the 3rd generation and work back from them. If you look at how the breed was developed, for the most part, they bred the females from the old working blood to the more showy/typey dogs. Even when you look at some of the older herding (NOT ALL) kennels, like Kirschental, you will see they maintained their working ability through the females even when breeding into the show lines. The breed was founded on strong females. My way of looking at pedigrees comes from successful horse and cattle breeding.

I also look at the males, especially the males that sired those females. Then the main sire line and then, for me probably the least important, the sire line of the mother's father.

All in all I am looking for balance and for dogs that produce what I want to own, work and, in the future, breed.

Unfortunately what Cliff says is true. This is not something you do without experience and that experience comes from working dogs. Of course you also have to have an understanding of what the GSD is supposed to be. Even if you talk to people who have been in the breed for generations you still must have practical experience to fully comprehend what they are telling you.