Genetic Obedience

[jocoyn]

Ok Lots of threads with snippits of this. I 'hear' it is typically brought in with the OLD herding lines...

How, when evaluating a young prospect can you assess whether this characteristic is present? At 6 months, at 12 months? -- or is it strictly a matter of knowing the genetics?

What lines carry it......where do you find it? (I threw in the showline dogs because it is a specific attribute and in the absence of other factors)

[jocoyn]

My showline comment does not make sense anymore - I had put in a list with the different "types" of GSDs such as West German Working, Czech, DDR, German SHow, American, Belgian, etc. ..........

[Samba]

My old girl who has Uwe and herding lines relatively close, Samba, was obviously obedient when I got her around 6 months. Never had to use a leash on her for any training and has not failed a recall, even when giving chase, in 10 years. I would say she is quite high in pack drive. I don't know how evident it was before the 6 month age.

[jocoyn]

I guess you would have to evaluate the relationship between an older puppy and its owner. I would think that an older puppy would / should be neutral to me as a visitor.

[carmspack]

I'm jumping up and down with my hand up, teacher , pick me , pick me.

100% true account .

The other day I took out a female born Nov 3 2010 sire Griswald van Xazziam - German shepherd dog

dam Airdrie Hill vom Schmetterling - German shepherd dog

to Mike Clay's some half hour drive away. First time in van.
First time on lead . Came out of van. Initially pulled back a bit on the restriction of collar and lead, I set my course, calm and steady , respectful of the pups newness , but nontheless I set the direction , and so we go. Within 20 paces she is prancing beside me , perfect heel position , head turned giving me eye contact. I stop to give her a calm shoulder to rear stroke on her left side and we continue. Within another 20 or so paces I am feeling her being correct so I drop the leash and she still continues to walk beside me with perfect animated heel position. Mike is to my right , dog to my left, Mikes beautiful young daughter to my left, the dogs right side. We go to a mini ramp . Dog shows some resistance. I go to up the ramp, and pause on the platform. Manipulate leash with gentle pressure. Dog puts on paw on contraption. Good. I get off and repeat going up. Dog is able to put both front feet on but still sceptical. I repeat. Within 4 to 5 times the dog is speedy going up and down , pausing on top , can't wait to reload and do again.
We head over to an A frame, no difficulty at all. Instant up and down.
The first ramp contraption was a new experience and I demonstrated to her trust in handler -- . Second A frame she flew up and descended. No checking to see if she should jump off sideways.

Then I did a master track . First time on this property. First time off my property.

Mike held her . His daughter and I go wandering off trying to find a relatively dry spot to hide in . We find one about 75 feet away just the other side of a bit of a ridge . So we are in a bowl.
Some 5 minutes later I hear Mike approaching , can just barely see the dog. She is off leash but wearing leash and collar. She had picked up the leash and is carrying it in her mouth so she does not get tangled in it (plus these guys like to carry). I see that she is doing a broad circle sweep , coming near and then going away from always ending at a wall of a big clump of mature cedar , and to the east another clump of bush. This is where the wind carrying our scent , which is blowing towards her , is pooling and the strongest.
Mike , excellent handling , knowing where we are by sight at this point, does not guide her towards us but just takes a few steps down the side of the hill , so still some 20 - 25 feet away. Dog goes down the embankment, learns something about scent , picks up the scent and makes a beeline to where we are .
Mike's daughter is to my left which is the near side of the dogs approach. Dog gives her a push with the muzzle so acknowledging her presence but then comes and drapes herself across my lap where she gets ample praise.

We do one more . Dog respond quick to new situation . Catching on.

We start walking back to house. The leash came off the buckle and so we back track. The dog had been off leash for some time and yet here she was perfect heel position , left and shoulder to leg and eye contact.

We walk back to A frame which she does with enthusiasm and then she had us all laughing because she left us , ran the 10 steps ahead and went up and down the ramp several times all by herself - getting amusement and praise.

Reconnect start walking back to house , have to cross a creek, she walks through without hesitation.

In the distance close to the house some 200 feet away are her two brothers in side by side kennels . There is some privacy covering so they can't see each other , but can hear . Mike and I are talking and she runs out to investigate . Goes to visit , is excited, I yell here , here, here, trying to at that distance have my voice carry and be heard over the excited pups in the kennel. She looks around and comes flying , running as fast as she can perfect straight line to me . Praise, walk back to house in heel position. She did not even look sideways at Mike's personal dogs. The only distraction was her two littermates.

I said to Mike --- you have seen Genetic Obedience today --

no gimicks. no food in hand, no ball , recall under distraction at a distance, never ever a correction

IT IS A THING OF BEAUTY

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[carmspack]

Nancy , Samba comes from me -- and that is Genetic Obedience.
I have done videos for canine vision canada some 30 years ago of 7 - 8 week old pups heeling, stopping , paying attention, briefly staying , and always recalls.

I took Laurels pup Journey for a little walk when Laurel was so nice to visit me at my Saturday market location. Same thing. Very light on lead, walk through busy pedestrian crowd and traffic going by in drive way, very nice - "cruise control" response.

These are dogs with a lot of drive by the way .

I have always said I want the dog to provide 70% of the work and the handler contributes 30

I see far too many dogs where the dog has no intrinsic interest and the handler is working real hard to get the behaviour . Handler input 80 - 90 , dogs contribution 10.

Carmen

[carmspack]

It does not have to do with the relationship of the owner -- it has to do with the genetics.

The example I gave of the female at Mikes is a first time for all things I spoke of. She is a member of 4 pups remaining , one which I will be keeping . They are basically kennel and crate dogs at the moment and I do my best to give them individual me time. One of the reasons so many of my emails to the list are at 2 and 3 am , because I have them in the barn.

You can breed for loyalty. That puppy knew exactly who she came with. She was friendly with Mike and daughter , but never strayed to walk away with them. She would not be bribed.

There are a lot of things missing in a lot of breedings. One of the reasons I loved the comment by GSD07 in another thread where she said "that the working drive is more complex then just the ability to chase the ball endlessly" . Complex , sophisticated, rich , and interesting .

Why do you think I get short when people merely ask for colour.

These attributes are beneficial for work or even a most wonderful pet experience, a dog with some dimensions and potentials and easy to work becasue the dog is making itself available . Not dogs to neglect and not dogs to hard handle , not necessary and insulting to the dog.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[jocoyn]

Carmen - I know that is a hallmark of your dogs (from you and people I have spoken with) and very few people seem to breed for this - alas I know at 1-2 litters a year you cannot supply all the good working dogs we will need......So given that, are there good ways to assess. If someone has a prospect how do you assess for that?

Most "end users" like me are dumbfounded by the genetics and do have to trust but can you "see" it in a prospect?

I see that my West German WL female is ONLY about the toy or food and is not really bonded to me even though I tried to do all the "right" things with her as a puppy. I wonder was it my fault with early training? Was it her genetics? She is about rewards or corrections only. Very independant.

My Czech/DDR male came to me at 2 years and was completely bonded to me in a matter of days. and has never known a pinch collar. Naturally heels, naturally wants to please (but still works in partnership from good distances and has the right drives for work, so it is NOT about the dog being low in drive)

So, not about individual dogs but, now that I have seen the difference with my own two eyes.......how do you know? Is it something you can evaluate for? Most tests I have seen only asses social attraction but not really this characteristic. How can one assess it with a dog they do not know? The pup is bonded to another and not me, the evauator..........

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was posting during Carmen's second reply more about the genetics, not the handler ......I did think this was a good discussion topic in and of itself for more than just me

[Guardyan]

I think one of the strongest indicators of genetic obedience is retrieving instinct. You can test for this while the pup is still in the litter. I also like to see a pup that has a strong interest in following and being with the handler.

[Samba]

It doesn't have to do with the handler, that is for sure. I think the pup may show you a high leve of wanting to interact even with the distraction of other pups and activities. They may offer you attention with no effort on your part. There is a willingness to follow and to check in a bit when exploring, but not undue attachment. I can say with my girl she just had an intense interest in me from the start... very flattering.