Bloodlines and SAR

[GSDElsa]

I recently got into a rather lively debate with someone I really respect about the suitability of certain lines to do SAR. I've already discussed this with some of the SAR members here as well as several breeders, but I thought it would be an interesting conversation to continue outside of PM's and emails for everyone's benefit.

Essentially, the person does not think that ANY Czech line does are good for SAR because they are "sharp" and "reactive." And in the even that someone was to be brave enough to venture into Czech lines for SAR that they should have years and years of experience of working with working line GSD's (me owning and working 1 of these, plus fostering experience, as well as the "in home" work I've done with problem dogs is not considered enough).

Incidentally, I touched based with many SAR people across the US on this topic and only 1 felt similar to her. The rest raved about the lines and their ability to do SAR.

Obviously this debate is largely dependant on the specific dogs in the pedigree--as is always the case. But as a general rule, what is your opinion?

MY thought is that they would make a good match in the most general of terms: higher thresholds, harder (recovers quicker and is unfazed by many things), less hectic than WGWL's can be. Bad things: Higher defense or civil drive.

[GSDElsa]

And I will add to the discussion:

If you think Czech line dogs make good candidates for SAR, what dogs do you like to see in the pedigree and what dogs don't you like to see.

[lhczth]

IMO, it would depend on the lines just like in any of the dogs no matter country of origin. I have seen Czech dogs, that no, would not be suitable at all and others that are/would be excellent. I have seen the same in WL also.

[Mrs.K]

I don't know enough about Czech line to answer the question but is it the person I think it is?

[jocoyn]

I do hope you get feedback. I have seen some awful nice Czech dogs but am being open minded to the exact traits that I want (and hope I still wind up with a GSD, but even there - whatever - is to use the best tool for the job)

I wonder too what East German dogs add to the soup. Many Czech dogs I have seen have DDR in the pedigree (and I know some who thought highly of Lord v Gleisdreieck (please forgive any spelling error - ok - "lord of the railroad wye" --- in a pedigree and he was SAR. Also Mink and Crok for hunt drives (West German) but then where does that go with sharpness? Of course these are older dogs because the last time I got tangled up in pedigrees was 2002.

[carmspack]

I hope that Cliff sees this and gets involved . Here is my opinion based on experience and observation of "Czech dogs" . Yes I agree with Lisa that it would depend on the lines . Generally though I would say that what the Czech dogs have to offer the breed is strong character , strong fight drive. I would say that it is power through strength in the way that a "thug" or "goon" or "enforcer" through sheer brute strength gets things done. This is not bad. This is not good. We have far to many weak , shy , fearful dogs in the breed with no determination to get a job done. The problem is that though they have this on the positive side of the balance sheet I will say that they are lacking in SMARTS. There I said it. Not really bright in the way a good herding dog would be . Not so biddable. Not anticipating what you may want to have done , or good to be left alone to carry on a task without supervision.
Many members of this forum have a friend in common on another list , who uses her dogs day to day practical herding , NOT trial or competition herding which has ruined it . Many a time she has said she has left the dogs in charge while she "went in to town". The old dogs could do that .
I have been writing several real life herders in Germany to get a feel for the intelligence required.
Everyone automatically labels the GSD as a smart breed. I would no longer give such a blanket description. Just like stable nerves, "near human intelligence" is something that you really have to look for .
I did have a herding dog of another breed who even at 6 months of age had so thoroughly learned my husbands daily routine of going out and taking care of our horses that he could "feel" for the time , he would run the routine all by himself . We always laughed and said we could take a holiday and leave him in charge .
Currently I have a GSD from my breeding program that is as close to that as I have ever had. Smart as a whip. Just had his first birthday. Tell him to go out and bring them in and he will . He fires out and gets busy. Never too much , never too little.
Never handler aggressive. Strong and courageous. Very bidable , not soft in anyway.
Last summer I had a guest come over unannounced. I was in the side garden with the pup who was only about 5 months at the time. I was renovating a rose garden and wanted to finish so my guest pulled up a chair and sat in the shade and I showed the pup off. He observed my needing a shovel, a hand shovel, the hose . If I moved away to a further part of the garden the dog without any direction or encouragement would go and mouth the heavy shovel handle and drag it over to me. Likewise any equipment that I needed for the job. I asked him to "hold" it . Which meant it was his to guard as a guard the object excercise. My friend could not get it , could not touch the object . The dog would lay there and give him the hairy eyeball . If friend crept too close dog stood up and barked. Closer in dog would chase . It was as if someone had taught him perimeters .

I have not ever experienced this kind of smartness in Czech lines. In DDR lines yes, closer , in fact this dog is a mix of ddr / west german working , even has one incidental line to show , although this show line has been proven to work.

The secret is in the breeding criterion. DDR and West German lines have a conservation of heritage working herding dogs. In the Czech dogs there was no necessity for nuance , just honest raw power . It can be put to use so don't take it as a criticism .

Now on another note, without mentioning names I am dealing with a person who has a German show line dog - lots of modern Kirschental with some major health issues . The person wanted a "better" dog so as an antidote went out and bought a Czech dog as an import. I know the pedigrees . The Czech dog comes from very reliable breeder who I would not hesitate buying from . Things happen. Nature is not 100% controllable. The sad thing is that the dog is very healthy , but the dog is afraid of the wind , afraid of thunder, very noise sensitive , so not so good temperamentally.

Interesting question -- as the end user , whether police , or SAR or any other function the evaluator has to thoroughly test the dog in front of them.
It is the breeder who has to understand the possibilities of a line .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[carmspack]

I wouldn't want to see Crok .
My experience in SAR is having several dogs trained and certified by rcmp , and/or to rcmp standards. If someone were to ask what differentiates my dogs I would answer deliberate high hunt/search , deliberate instinctive tracking skills.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[GoSearchk9]

My dog has quite a bit of Czech in his lines and he is PHENOMENAL couldn't ask for a better SAR dog. He is flying through training and everyone else on the team with a GSD wants to work him instead .

[jocoyn]

Carmen that is a very interesting comment because we sometimes joke that my Czech male is dumber than a dumb rock. Unlike my West German female he does not offer tons of behaviors to get what he wants.

Though a police officer I worked with in training him said the best detection dog he ever had was not particularly bright. And I have heard a few others say that as well.

I know mine does not challenge me or try to change the rules like the smarter dog does by constantly pushing the limits and does not figure out things like going around instead of through obstables. Yet he does learn quickly, is eager, and wants to please (and loves the toy) and has, in that respect, been very easy to work with...which may be the DDR overlay?

I will say everything I have heard about this intellegence and perceptiveness always does seem to be ascribed to the old herding lines.

Now, is that a necessary attribute for SAR? Hmmm......well I think that is what makes the GSD *not* a Malinois perhaps (that and the off switch)

[jocoyn]

Originally Posted by carmspack

I wouldn't want to see Crok .Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

Why? Males with crok in the male tail line I have heard tendency towards handler agression (then the arguments about nature vs nurture on that trait) and I know that both of my females uncles were very handler agressive (her mother was a crok grandaughter)....I have never seen a sign of handler agression in my female but she is very reactive around other dogs unless they are in her family.

This was my working female - washed for bad hips now a pet. A delightful little dog - great with people - but very intellegent and independant. Not particuarly "attached" - only to the one who gives her food The Czech/DDR male is very bonded to me. The female has almost too much prey drive in regards to she wants to chase anything that moves. I realized with him you really don't need THAT or even want THAT for good huting drives. SHe is very distractable/He focused. She a handful/he easy. I still have the female - she is a very comical delightful dog and at 8 have no intentions of rehoming her.
cyra vom alyeska - German shepherd dog

This is the male Czech/DDR - and he honestly is not quite bright but learns quickly.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=460211

AND I DON"T MIND HAVING ANY PEDIGREE "INSULTED" - I am looking to gain knowledge!