German Shepherds Forum banner

Neuter or not

21K views 156 replies 36 participants last post by  shepherdmom 
#1 ·
Hey guys i need an honest opinion from some of you that actually have many experience have intact and neutered male GSD or any large breed ( ofc everyone else is free to reply too )
Cause i read so many articles .so many posts and i get conflicting informations. Are vets telling us to neuter cause the gov make them too ? I read many negAtive effects too . In a way i feel that neutering my dog does not make me a responsible owner but its the other way arround and also feels like i betray my dog. Please share your experience with intact males too.

Thanks
Ace' dad :)
 
#2 ·
Hi Ace, My breeder advised not to neuter. He felt owner should be responsible by separating from females when necessary. I am tossed on the subject too. It will be interesting to hear people weigh in.
I have a male 5mos and female 4mos. I will need to make a decision soon.
 
#3 ·
Vets push it because most American's are not responsible owners and can't keep their pets from "accidentally" reproducing. From what I have seen and read, a male dog will not develop fully if he doesn't have the hormones that are needed. He may look less masculine, leggy, not as thick, etc. My breeder who is also a vet recommends not neutering till at lease 14 months (maybe longer, can't remember). I will wait till he is 2 or older, or never, not sure....haven't decided. I also found out that neutering at a young age can have bone development issues...arthritis, etc.

For me, since I don't let me dog out of my sight, he is never out with out me being out with him, I feel I can avoid neutering without worrying about him knocking up someone.
 
#4 ·
I have an intact male and have had a few. They need a good bit more management and you face the prospect of enlarged prostate down the road. There are a ton of threads on the topic already. You may want to search the forum.

Having a female in house adds to the complexity of the topic because, even if you keep them separate, the males may not eat and be severely distracted by the female in the house. Some folks I know board the males during the female heat.
 
#5 ·
Once your dog is physically mature, then it's up to how responsible you are as a dog owner. If there is a chance he may get loose and that may end up in unwanted puppies, then get him neutered.

If there is NO chance cause you are able to keep him safe and secure, and if his temperament is what you want, and he's trained well to be reliable, then it's up to you.

More info to help with the decision on --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/172560-best-age-spay-neuter.html
 
#6 ·
Vets push it because most American's are not responsible owners and can't keep their pets from "accidentally" reproducing.

exactly this
it takes a lot of supervision and there are other issues that can arise like aggression esp towards other males
also as mentioned prostate issues down the road
and other reproductive cancers
there is always a trade off
also looks are determined more by genetics than early neuter except there seems to be a propensity towards extra bone growth making the dog slightly taller if neutered earlier than later
 
#8 · (Edited)
WHAT other reproductive cancers exactly??

There are NONE associated with an intact male, and it's lies like that thrown around by everyone telling you to neuter your dog at 6 weeks old or they'll die before they're 5 of 100 different mysterious cancers.

Intact males are more susceptible to prostatitis and prostate abscesses as they age. Both can kill your dog, but both can also be treated. NEUTERED dogs are more prone to prostate TUMORS that are non - responsive to most treatments and will eventually kill your dog.

There are really no other health defects associated with having an intact male. No cancers linked to testosterone in the body.

I feel pets should be kept intact until sexual maturity (12-18 months preffered) for their own health BENEFIT. But yes, most people can't handle intact animals so they should be neutered if you can not 100% guarantee your dog is not going to jump the fence or go running off.

As far as behavioral issues... it amazes me when "trainers" recommend early castration to avoid a whole list of behavior problems. Long story short - train your dog. And if someone can't train an intact male to be obedient and not mark in their house, I wouldn't want them as a trainer! I have a neutered male I neutered at 9 months, and I have a 16 month working line male, intact. Both are, surprise surprise, very well behaved, social, obedient, neither has ever dared to mark in the house. I have taken the intact male to schutzhund club every week since he was 8 weeks old, and surprise surprise, 30+ intact dogs and ALL of them are extremely well behaved, and all of them are first and foremost family pets that live in a house. Most with other dogs.

The german shepherd i had to euthanize for extreme fear aggression was neutered at 4 months old... i am not saying that is related, because it's not. That's my point. Sexual organs (or lack of) should play ZERO part in a dog's training or behavior.

Now don't get me wrong. Yes an intact male has an increased chance of dog aggression (although I surprisingly find it seems to be neutered males that go after intact males). Yes an intact animal has an increased instance of roaming. My whole point is, train your dog, contain your dog. Things you should be doing with or without balls.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#7 ·
I always say it’s a lifestyle decision more than a dog decision. You need to figure out what you want to do with your dog, and how keeping him intact, or her intact will affect that. If you like to go to places where your dog is off-leash with other dogs, more than likely you’ll need to neuter. If you take your dog or plan on taking your dog to daycare…you’ll need to neuter.

It’s not super difficult to keep your dog contained, my dog doesn’t jump a 4 foot fence to wander when/if he smells a female in heat. But when I walk him, I can definitely see the difference in his behavior when a female in heat is in the neighborhood. It’s also quite difficult to get through to him when a female in heat is within 100 feet of him, the only choice is basically physical restraint and then leaving the area.

I’ve heard a lot of horror stories when you have a female and a male intact and the female goes through a heat. Like…doors and walls being broken through. So that’s not something I’d like to put up with. At the same time, I also hate to crate and rotate and don’t need to deal with that for 2 months out of the year. I like that my dogs can be free around the house to do whatever whenever they want and there is no risk of a tie and then whelping a litter of puppies. I like that I can let both my dogs out into the yard in the morning when I’m half awake, and at night when I come home from a night out and am half asleep. There are no worries.

If not clear, I have an intact male, and a spayed female.
 
#10 · (Edited)
the veterinarian dr becker recommends neuter for aggression issues so there must be something to it
how about testicular cancer? yes it happens in older intact males
tumors on the anus or perianal adenomas

Perianal adenomas are small growths in the muscle around the anus. If not removed when small, they grow until they break through the skin, get infected, smell bad and cause a great deal of discomfort to the dog. While perianal adenomas initially are benign, some progress into highly malignant cancers.

Perianal adenomas can be treated by surgical excision or cryosurgery (frozen with liquid nitrogen). If the dog is neutered at the time of surgery, the tumors almost never return. If not neutered, the tumors almost always return. It is extremely rare for a female or a neutered male to have a Perianal adenoma.
Why neutering Male dogs is important
 
#14 · (Edited)
I'm sorry, I did forget testicular cancer, which is rarely malignant and easily treated (you neuter). Boy that makes me feel kind of dumb. I blame these 12 hour graveyard shifts.

I also do not agree nor do my doctors that perianal adenomas are limited to intact males. I feel that they are becoming more pronounced in neutered dogs mores, or at the very least there is little correlation between the two (I have seen 3 in the last year in my clinic, 1 was an intact male, actually a coworkers dog, 2 were neutered males, both neutered young before 1 year)
Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#12 · (Edited)
OP, you are in Georgia--we have essentially a year-round puppy season in most of the Deep South. The number of litters of mixed-breed "oops" puppies euthanized in southern shelters would make a lot of jaws drop -- the number is astronomical. If even half of the people who "intend" to be responsible actually were, we wouldn't be euthanizing THOUSANDS of puppies in the Deep South.

Nobody intends to let their dog make puppies that will die in the shelter. There are lots of well intentioned owners, thinking it will never happen. Then one day the neighbor's hunting dog is in heat, and your intact male smells it while he's out in the backyard for his morning poo. You are the kind of person who keeps an eye on your dog while he's outside in your fenced backyard, but you go in to refill your coffee cup for 30 seconds, as you don't realize what your dog just smelled. In those 30 seconds, he's hopped over the fence and has mounted the female.

Guess what? Your intact male just made mutt-puppies -- and they could well end up in your local shelter, euthanized (in some parts of the Deep South, that might even be a gassing or heart-stick shelter).

It happens THAT easily. This scenario gets repeated all over, many, many times. There are lots of ueber-experienced, serious dog owners on this board for whom that scenario would never happen. The vast majority of people out there reading are not those kind of owners--they're inexperienced pet homes who don't know what an intact male intent on breeding is capable of. And they have dogs that should never be bred. For most "regular" homes, neutering will keep their dog from bolting making puppies--or getting knocked up by the neighbor dog.

The advice vets are giving is the result of a euthanasia crisis in the United States. If dogs don't get speutered, the numbers won't come down, and puppies will keep on dying in droves.
 
#17 · (Edited)
lala you might want to click the link to the article :)
there are indeed cancers associated with animals being left intact as well as other health issues

also anub i do not recall anyone recommending neutering at 6 weeks :rolleyes:
perhaps shelters do that and rescues although it seemed 8 weeks at shelters seemed the norm but that has little bearing on what owners do and folks who adopt from shelters do not seem to mind that their puppy is already altered
 
#20 ·
The problem I have with this discussion, is that for some reason, people tend to throw away the proven fact that the majority of dog owners ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. It’s been proven time and time again. We all know about how many dogs get euthanized, and we’ve even ran into it on this forum where people planned to spueter one of their animals and then OOOPS they’re making $500 a puppy…

I don’t know OP, or the other person that asked the question, and they could be the most responsible owners in the world. But history says that they’re more than likely not, and we all make mistakes. I personally live in an area with people that speuter, there are very few intact females around (I can tell because my boy rarely reacts), and so it’s a very small worry that he’d hop a fence to get at one.

The research studies that link this cancer with that or that cancer with this, are extremely hazy and not very well done. There is no “control group” and it’s very hard to truly say that something causes this or that. Mostly because dogs live in such different environments, have such different exercise routines, eat different food, and have such differing genetics (between breeds and lines). Those things aren’t looked at. Where the dog came from, who bred it, was testing done before hand? Just the act of neutering/spaying is studied. I’m sure there are plenty of good breeders that have had dogs neutered/spayed that didn’t develop the different cancers people link to that…

So that’s the problem with this discussion…it’s all about the person asking the question. And none of us know this person, or how “trusted” they can be to not allow something to happen. Again, everyone can say they’re responsible, but history has proven otherwise. The statistics on “accidental breedings” have a much higher correlation when you look at people thinking they can prevent one, and then not being able to. Then there is always the chance that one day, someone comes up to that person and offers a hefty stud fee, or a free puppy if they breed their male to their female…and who knows what that person will say at that point? I know I’d think about it…I already have thought about it. If my dog was neutered, it wouldn’t even be an issue of my ethics/morals, the question wouldn’t even come up. But when the dog is intact…you’ll get tested.
 
#26 ·
Martemchik, you're right. I will stay out of these conversations.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
Not sure why...

Didn't even see any of your posts lol, too busy ranting away.

I really don't care if people spay/neuter...I have an intact dog, it would be hypocritical for me to tell someone they need to neuter theirs. I just hate that people bring up the medical stuff, not really understanding those studies...just seeing numbers...and really don't bring up the lifestyle risks you're taking.

My intact dog has caused me to make a lifestyle change. I don't mind it, but its a change none the less. Many people don't want to make that change. And people love to claim their intact dogs aren't aggressive towards other dogs...good for them...the majority of intact dogs will have issues with each other...that's a correlation that I don't need to prove with any study, I've seen it all too often at parks and at training when new dog owners allow their dogs to interact a bit too much.
 
#25 ·
I'll try to list my research article sources when I'm awake, not some Web page but actual research papers, but as I've already pointed out, it has been shown that article is wrong on several levels.

Intact males are prone to prostatitis and abscesses, but not prostate cancer.

Neutered males have an increased instance of prostate cancer which responds poorly to treatment.

Intact males obviously able to get testicular cancer, although it is a fairly rare form of cancer in dogs (hard to judge though based on number of intact dogs compared to neutered)

Dogs neutered before a year of age have been shown to have an increased chance, some almost doubled or tripled, of osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, torn ACLs, prostate cancer, increased arthritis, hip dysplasia (likely due to uneven closure of the growth plates from lack of testosterone, therefor causing an irregular gait)



Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#28 ·
The problem I have with this discussion, is that for some reason, people tend to throw away the proven fact that the majority of dog owners ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. It’s been proven time and time again. We all know about how many dogs get euthanized, and we’ve even ran into it on this forum where people planned to spueter one of their animals and then OOOPS they’re making $500 a puppy…
there have been many oopsies here
which i always find mysterious since the results are often a purebred litter
 
#29 ·
I really don't care if people spay/neuter...I have an intact dog, it would be hypocritical for me to tell someone they need to neuter theirs. I just hate that people bring up the medical stuff, not really understanding those studies...just seeing numbers...and really don't bring up the lifestyle risks you're taking.

because calling people irresponsible does not tend to make you friends or make you popular? :)
 
#32 ·
My GSD Yogi lived 12+ years intact, never once was there any issues. I neutered Nelson JRT, he's worst then before, in many ways. Guy's just seem to have a problem with this subject. You're ego get's in the way of decision making. With that said; your dog won't change one little tiny bit, but should he run away, if he gets out, if there's a female in heat, if the breeding is successful, the initial problem get's worse. Too many if's for this guy, my breeding days are long gone, I will never breed anything again, the heartache supersedes the joy of it, and too many of these overenthusiastic pet owner's think and feel their dogs and cats are so beautiful the World need more. It's the owner's who need their cookies tied and bound, not just the dogs. In the wild, there are no vaccines or human interference, and for 40,000 years, they've done fine on their own. Human's breed unnecessarily as well, but what can be done about that without being labeled an awful dictator like Adolf.

SGCSG
 
#33 ·
I guess to me it still just comes down to, waiting until 12-18 months old could be the difference between cancer and your dog living to 15. I mean, neutering at 18 months old isn't going to harm the dog one bit. Neutering at 6 months old potentially could. So why can't people be told about the health risks? I feel it's unethical to NOT warn people just because of some shelter agenda. Who are you to decide if they're responsible or not. I hope they are. Maybe they aren't. But it's their dog and they deserve to know all the medical risks regardless. If they still decide to neuter early at least they are fully informed.

Yes the studies are hard. I would not say they're hazy or poorly done. But hard to control, for sure. For example, studies that look at purebreds, are the intact animals more likely to be better bred?

A study involving over 700 Rottweilers showed that early neutered dogs had a much higher rate of osteosarcoma. Neutered and intact dogs were split pretty evenly, and that's a good sized study. So I tend to trust the results. Now granted, Rottweilers were used because they're prone to osteosarcoma.

Either the same study or a similar one found that female Rottweilers spayed AFTER 6 years old lived on average 30% longer. For a breed that only has an average lifespan of 8 years or so, that's giving the dog 3 extra years.

But yes you have problems. Because they're prone to osteosarcoma would the outcome be different in other breeds? Are the intact animals intact because they tend to be show or working homes and therefor well bred vs. BYB?
Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#34 ·
I agree with Anubis Star and wait to neuter until 12-18months.

Since our dog had knee surgery due to torn ligament, I've had a couple people mention a recent study that suggested it is better to spay/neuter until dog is fully mature and this may prevent some orthopedic issues. I found a long study, but here is a small quote:

While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females.

Furthermore, the new study showed a surprising 100 percent increase, or doubling, of the incidence of hip dysplasia among early-neutered males. Earlier studies had reported a 17 percent increase among all neutered dogs compared to all non-neutered dogs, indicating the importance of the new study in making gender and age-of-neutering comparisons.
 
#35 ·
a link to an article which shows how poorly these studies are even understood
complex to say the least

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf

to me when coupled with the fact that altering just prior to sexual maturity will prevent those elusive oops litters it makes sense to recommend earlier than later altering

martems assertion that most people are not equipped to handle intact animals is entirely true unfortunately
 
#36 ·
It's really up to every person to make the decision for themself. If you decide to neuter regardless of age there are risks, if you decide to never neuter there are risks. I have yet to see a manual made out for every dog laying out every decision which allows the dog the live to a perfect age with no complications.

Weigh the pros and cons and make your own decision

Personally Delgado was neutered at 10 months old and has developed just fine, I've never once in his life had anyone ask whether he was male or female.
 
#38 ·
I don’t have a problem with you guys laying out the medical studies. Giving numbers and statistics, but again, unfortunately those correlations do not prove causation because of so many other factors that affect the dogs included in the study.

The only issue I see is that we lay out these numbers, that look terrible, that all point to keeping an animal intact because otherwise you’re increasing the risk of early death/disease. And the person looks at that data and goes…the negative in one situation is increased disease, the negative in the other situation is chance of puppies and possibly a bit of cash…not really a negative in many people’s minds. So of course you decide to keep your animal intact.

I’m not here to decide who is responsible and who isn’t. But if we talk about statistics, and you want to convince people that they are increasing the chance of their dog developing certain cancers BASED ON STATISTICS, it should be perfectly acceptable to assume BASED ON STATISTICS that the person asking this question isn’t going to be responsible with their intact animal.

Truth is…what shows you’re responsible is that you don’t ask this question to a bunch of strangers over the internet. Mainly because if you are responsible you’re probably connected to a breed group or a kennel club of some sort in real life and get the real important advice there, instead of from a bunch of strangers who don’t really know you and you have no reason to trust anyways.
 
#39 ·
I’m not here to decide who is responsible and who isn’t. But if we talk about statistics, and you want to convince people that they are increasing the chance of their dog developing certain cancers BASED ON STATISTICS, it should be perfectly acceptable to assume BASED ON STATISTICS that the person asking this question isn’t going to be responsible with their intact animal.

I like reading your posts because of gems like this))))))


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#41 ·
Rusty was neutered last summer at 3 years old for an on going prostate enlargement issue. It was really giving him grief and I felt it was the best thing to do for him. We kept an eye on it for a year, the vet never pushed neuter with me but did finally recommend it. We could have gone the meds route but I didn't want to. I was thankful that he was mature growth wise at 3 years old.

To be honest - had he never had the prostate issue I would have never neutered him. I never had issues that people warn you about with intact dogs. There was a female in heat in class before that got his attention - put a little vicks under his nose and he was fine - but he was never unmanageable.

I am compelled by the research I did on intact vs. neutered dogs. I personally believe there are more positive health benefits keeping them intact.

But at the end of the day everyone must do what they believe is best.
 
#44 ·
Rusty was neutered last summer at 3 years old for an on going prostate enlargement issue. It was really giving him grief and I felt it was the best thing to do for him. We kept an eye on it for a year, the vet never pushed neuter with me but did finally recommend it. We could have gone the meds route but I didn't want to. I was thankful that he was mature growth wise at 3 years old.

To be honest - had he never had the prostate issue I would have never neutered him. I never had issues that people warn you about with intact dogs. There was a female in heat in class before that got his attention - put a little vicks under his nose and he was fine - but he was never unmanageable.

I am compelled by the research I did on intact vs. neutered dogs. I personally believe there are more positive health benefits keeping them intact.

But at the end of the day everyone must do what they believe is best.
You put vicks on his nose?! Vick's is an extremely pungent ointment when put on humans, I have a hard time believing that that is ok to do to dogs. :eek:
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top