Veterinarians, Partners with you on your dog's well-being

[selzer]

I am starting this thread due to a thread where the OP is rather upset with the vet, has done research on line and found that the vet may have over-looked side-effects of a common antibiotic, had some mis-information, but also had the experience of the vet not taking her seriously, poo pooing the pup's symptoms as reported by her.

And another thread where the vet did not take the cat owner's concerns seriously and operated on the cat the way they wanted to, ignoring her request.

First off, I have a great vet in my opinion. The clinic has three vets, and is rather small, rural, we do not have a full lab or ultrasound equipment, so for some things we are referred to larger clinics. I went to them the first time nearly 30 years ago, and keep going back. I have had a few questionable moments, but in all I am glad I have stuck with them. So this is not about my own vet. But more in general.

It seems to be a balance. I have to respect the education and experience my vet has if I want to keep going there. I do not run off and research everything on the internet to ensure that the vet is doing right by my critters. But, I also have a breed of dog that can have many issues, and I can't expect the vet to be 100% up to par on well over a hundred dog breeds' idiosyncrasies. And, I am the one that lives with the dog, I see that they are not quite right, and if I can connect the dots somewhat, I can ask questions that might jar them into considering something, then I see nothing wrong with that.

The problem with the internet is that there is good information, bad information, and incomplete information, and unless we have been trained, by education or experience, we may not be able to tell the difference. When I do look stuff up, sometimes the technical information is a bit beyond me. But it gives me enough information to be dangerous. I take that and instead of demanding a vet do what I have come up with (like I do with my doctor), I use it to ask intelligent (I hope) questions.

I think it takes more than one or two visits for a vet to totally trust their clients too. They should definitely respect them, and give them as much information as they can, but I think that sometimes we expect an awful lot from vets. A workmate of my sister's would switch vets every time one of them would tell her her dog was over-weight. My sister says the dog resembled a coffee table, and one of the vets told her she was killing her dog. She left in a huff. I think I would like to know that vet's name so I could recommend him.

Over time, a client might be able to purchase the necessaries to fix a recurring issue without dragging the dog in and paying an office call. But that would take a level of trust.

I think also, even the best vets make mistakes. If we see a problem we should not just trust blindly that what the vet ordered/prescribed must be ok and everything will be just fine if we plow forward.

It is a partnership. We know our dogs better than the vet does, we know their behavior and when they are off. The vet knows the science better than we do, or we would have DVM after our names. We are our dog's advocate, their voice. We have to communicate effectively what is happening, and if we do not understand something we have to keep asking questions until we are satisfied. They need to respect us enough to listen to our concerns.

If the respect isn't there are both sides, I think that the overall care for the critter will suffer. And maybe the owner should take their dog elsewhere.

How do you see your vet in partnership with you for your dog's health? I know I hear a lot on here about how we shouldn't take nutrition advice from vets, or behavioral advice from vets. Do you feel that your vet has your dog's best interests in mind but that you can still disagree with what they want to do, and choose to not follow the advice?

[Shade]

I've been blessed to know two great vets.

My mother took their three year old GR with fear issues when it started to become worse, he literally got down on the floor with this dog to help it feel more comfortable. The only issue was he worked in a large clinic which kept raising their prices to ridiculous amounts so we left

I brought my cocker spaniel in with ear issues to this vet, he knew I couldn't afford the surgery and agreed to try other methods of treatment and never once made me feel like a horrible pet parent for not being able to afford a $3000 surgery.

My current vet is fantastic, he mixes traditional with holistic medicines and actually listens to you when you talk. I'm very happy with him, his prices are very reasonable as well which I like

Vets are human, they do make mistakes and I don't see why you can't ask questions or get a second opinion.

[Anubis_Star]

I feel that MOST vets have our dogs best interest in mind. TRUST me. I don't know why else any of us would be in this field! Even for vets, starting salary is only 50,000$ a year or so. Considering most graduate with over 250,000$ in debt (student loans), well.... One of my doctors commonly tells me she makes less now as a vet then she did as a technician, after she is through paying her monthly student loan payment. And technicians, we're not exactly sailing the high money seas either. I do make more because I work in a competitive emergency, specialty practice, and coming right out of school I had SEVERAL clinics "fighting" over me, so I did get to play the salary war :P

The one person was irritated they gave an antibiotic for a skin infection when she clearly read online that it was for RESPIRATORY problems. Clearly google graduated from the top teaching hospital. Another person found ONE non-medical article online saying benadryl could cause irregular heart beats. So despite the fact that I could not find a single veterinarian reference towards an arrhythmia caused by benadryl, that must of been what caused this dog to have a murmur. Someone else was recently upset their dog died from something the vet didn't medically treat... even though 3 days prior that same person turned down xrays that could of diagnosed the cause, and in my opinion the doctor followed every medical protocol we most likely would of done, from the way the case was described by the obviously angry owner.

No, I do not trust most vets when it comes to nutrion. One, because I've been through the same exact nutrition training (1 week taught by a Hill's representative), and two because I believe nutrition in the vet field is EXTREMELY biased towards the only large company really sponsoring medical food research. Science Diet.

I don't always trust vets on behavior. Some have taken many great behavior courses, and can come up with a lot of good advice. Others may of taken some in college, but if you rarely do something over a 20 year career why would you be an expert on it. I ask my vet's advice for some behavioral issues, but then I also contact a trainer I trust. I have found though that the doctors I work with will ADMIT when they don't understand a problem.

Another thing that kills vets and techs - people refusing diagnostic services because they either feel it is too expensive or they simply can not afford it. Then the vet is blamed when we can't figure out what is going on. When we can't even get basic blood work and xrays to get a good overall picture on your pet, how are we going to know what's causing the problem? A million different things can cause vomiting/diarrhea. You either allow us to diagnose, or it's trial by error when we just randomly start treating possible causes.

[Karma6577]

We have a fabulous vet!! She loves our dogs and listens to what is going on. She doesn't preach to me about RAW diets. We have walked out of many clinics because the doctor was against RAW diets and was condoning us. I wouldn't give her up for nothing.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

[Anubis_Star]

I also see people coming on here questioning a diagnosis, (recent one about panosteitis in a 10 week pup comes to mind), and even though they had spoken to 3 different vets that felt it was probably a good initial diagnosis, EVERYONE on here swore it couldn't be pano because "It's not common until 5-7 months". Despite there being reported cases of 8 week old pups with pano. But good thing the people on this board saved all they money they could of spent on vet school. What with their knowledge, they could take the field by storm WITHOUT their license!

I think it's GREAT to research, ask around, get advice from others that have dealt with the same thing. I do it all the time. But keep an open mind. AFTER you research, instead of confronting or attacking your vet or assuming they MUST be wrong because everyone on here said so, have a POLITE adult conversation where you share your concerns/ask your questions, and see how they respond. A good doctor (or technician) should be able to have that open conversation with you. And if you feel like you aren't getting the answers that works for you, simply find another vet. Don't assume they are a horrible vet. One of the best doctors at my hospital has HORRIBLE people skills! It's just how they are. They aren't TRYING to be rude or cold. So us techs are just constantly going behind them and "patching things up" with clients, if you will. We add the smile to the conversation If I had to pick a doctor to work on my dog in an emergency, they would probably be my top choice. AMAZING vet, horrible people person.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Anubis_Star

I feel that MOST vets have our dogs best interest in mind. TRUST me. I don't know why else any of us would be in this field! Even for vets, starting salary is only 50,000$ a year or so. Considering most graduate with over 250,000$ in debt (student loans), well.... One of my doctors commonly tells me she makes less now as a vet then she did as a technician, after she is through paying her monthly student loan payment. And technicians, we're not exactly sailing the high money seas either. I do make more because I work in a competitive emergency, specialty practice, and coming right out of school I had SEVERAL clinics "fighting" over me, so I did get to play the salary war :P

The one person was irritated they gave an antibiotic for a skin infection when she clearly read online that it was for RESPIRATORY problems. Clearly google graduated from the top teaching hospital. Another person found ONE non-medical article online saying benadryl could cause irregular heart beats. So despite the fact that I could not find a single veterinarian reference towards an arrhythmia caused by benadryl, that must of been what caused this dog to have a murmur. Someone else was recently upset their dog died from something the vet didn't medically treat... even though 3 days prior that same person turned down xrays that could of diagnosed the cause, and in my opinion the doctor followed every medical protocol we most likely would of done, from the way the case was described by the obviously angry owner.

No, I do not trust most vets when it comes to nutrion. One, because I've been through the same exact nutrition training (1 week taught by a Hill's representative), and two because I believe nutrition in the vet field is EXTREMELY biased towards the only large company really sponsoring medical food research. Science Diet.

I don't always trust vets on behavior. Some have taken many great behavior courses, and can come up with a lot of good advice. Others may of taken some in college, but if you rarely do something over a 20 year career why would you be an expert on it. I ask my vet's advice for some behavioral issues, but then I also contact a trainer I trust. I have found though that the doctors I work with will ADMIT when they don't understand a problem.

Another thing that kills vets and techs - people refusing diagnostic services because they either feel it is too expensive or they simply can not afford it. Then the vet is blamed when we can't figure out what is going on. When we can't even get basic blood work and xrays to get a good overall picture on your pet, how are we going to know what's causing the problem? A million different things can cause vomiting/diarrhea. You either allow us to diagnose, or it's trial by error when we just randomly start treating possible causes.

Dude, you need to chill out and read my post again without the emotion/paranoia that seems to plague the medical-related fields that everyone is against them. Why does this seem to be the case?

I said there was misinformation that the poster had, I also said that the internet has bad information, good information and incomplete information.

And for some reason you are shouting at me.

My question was, can you believe your vet has your dog's best interests in mind and still disagree with the treatment suggested, and choose another path. It was never do you believe your vet is only in it for the money.

This is obviously a hot topic for you. I am sorry that is the case. This thread was kind of an opportunity to discuss how we feel in partnership with our vets. Not to bash vets, and not to bash pet owners either. Maybe more to illustrate how it actually is a partnership with respect and trust on both sides that makes the best scenario for the critters we love.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Anubis_Star

I also see people coming on here questioning a diagnosis, (recent one about panosteitis in a 10 week pup comes to mind), and even though they had spoken to 3 different vets that felt it was probably a good initial diagnosis, EVERYONE on here swore it couldn't be pano because "It's not common until 5-7 months". Despite there being reported cases of 8 week old pups with pano. But good thing the people on this board saved all they money they could of spent on vet school. What with their knowledge, they could take the field by storm WITHOUT their license!

I think it's GREAT to research, ask around, get advice from others that have dealt with the same thing. I do it all the time. But keep an open mind. AFTER you research, instead of confronting or attacking your vet or assuming they MUST be wrong because everyone on here said so, have a POLITE adult conversation where you share your concerns/ask your questions, and see how they respond. A good doctor (or technician) should be able to have that open conversation with you. And if you feel like you aren't getting the answers that works for you, simply find another vet. Don't assume they are a horrible vet. One of the best doctors at my hospital has HORRIBLE people skills! It's just how they are. They aren't TRYING to be rude or cold. So us techs are just constantly going behind them and "patching things up" with clients, if you will. We add the smile to the conversation If I had to pick a doctor to work on my dog in an emergency, they would probably be my top choice. AMAZING vet, horrible people person.

My first line of canine health-related issues is myself. I have dealt with a lot. What I haven't dealt with my second line is a breeder who has been raising GSDs for over 50 years, has worked as a vet tech and has taught some vets a thing or two over the years. I have found that with a well-worded search you can find on here case histories for a LOT of problems. In fact, one of them completely mirrored Cujo's demise, from the beginning symptoms to the final verdict, and the same preliminary diagnosis were made. That does not make the person with the dog that had the same issue that presented the same a veterinarian, but it also does not make her experience invalid because she was not. We still consulted the vet a number of times during the weeks that he was ill. We did not say, "Oh it's cancer, lets just skip all the vet part and have them euthanize him." No one is suggesting that.

I think, for the most part this site does point people to vets more often than not. Vet, Now, over and over again. My puppy is doing this... You need to take him to the vet now and why are you still reading this?

"AMAZING vet, horrible people person." Don't you see this as a terrible handicap? I am sorry, but dogs don't talk. They cannot pick up the phone and ask for an appointment. They are totally dependent on US to not only get them in to see the vet, but to communicate effectively what is happening with the dog, and to understand completely what we need to do about it. Disliking the vet, feeling intimidated by the vet, not feeling respected by the vet, and hamper what things we tell the vet to our dog's cost. If you had a vet that didn't believe in bloodwork, you would probably not think him such a great vet, but what a person can tell the vet about the dog's symptoms and behavior changes, are probably just as important as the numbers on the bloodwork for many diseases. Instead of patching things up for this guy, maybe it would be best for him to learn to be more of a people person, so that he isn't shunning his best source of information. And just because you made the person feel a little better before walking out the door does not mean they will not think twice before subjecting themselves to another dose of Dr. PeopleAren'tWorthMyTime.

[Anubis_Star]

Originally Posted by selzer

Dude, you need to chill out and read my post again without the emotion/paranoia that seems to plague the medical-related fields that everyone is against them. Why does this seem to be the case?

I said there was misinformation that the poster had, I also said that the internet has bad information, good information and incomplete information.

And for some reason you are shouting at me.

My question was, can you believe your vet has your dog's best interests in mind and still disagree with the treatment suggested, and choose another path. It was never do you believe your vet is only in it for the money.

This is obviously a hot topic for you. I am sorry that is the case. This thread was kind of an opportunity to discuss how we feel in partnership with our vets. Not to bash vets, and not to bash pet owners either. Maybe more to illustrate how it actually is a partnership with respect and trust on both sides that makes the best scenario for the critters we love.

I do greatly apologize, I did not mean to come off as harsh sounding, and was in no way yelling at you (or meaning to, even though now you are yelling at me and so it is a viscous circle). I found this to be a very interesting, thought provoking question, and as a member of the veterinary field was simply giving my side both as an owner and a worker that deals daily with owners. I can sometimes come off a little harsh. I think a lot of that is I work nights, and especially on nights like this when I've been at training clubs all day and am therefor tired, I can come off as a bit more harsh in my answers. I never mean to be, and try to tone it down, or at least go back and add an edit/apology for my tone.

And you are right, it is a little bit of a hot topic for me at the moment because it seems like in the last few days I've seen a few posts on here that I feel can be medically dangerous or that are blatantly going against the vet even though I feel like the treatment plan was, again, not necessarily incorrect (without being there, seeing the dog, etc... it is really impossible to EVER know)

I've frequently said, even if your vet isn't necessarily in the wrong, if you don't trust your vet or don't feel like you can communicate effectively, you need to find a new vet. That's not a healthy relationship from either side, and in the end the animal will most likely suffer.

There have been MANY treatment plans I haven't liked. I've switched vets before, biggest reason because of diet. And as I said, I've kissed client @$$ before because I've worked with a GREAT doctor that is a horrible people-person. I argue with some of my doctors all the time over things I feel are right that they don't agree with. Age to spay/neuter. What to feed. 2 of my doctors right now are extremely disappointed in me because I'm buying from a breeder instead of adopting from the shelter. Of course, we have that relationship that we can be "harder" with each other then they would obviously be to a client.

I hope you can better understand the message I was simply trying to convey from the opposite side of things, and not focus so much on the tone it was conveyed in, that was obviously (but completely unintentionally) harsh and overbearing.

[sparra]

I tend to ignore most of the "I don't like my vet" threads now due to the fact you are only hearing a one sided argument anyway.

Having been on the other side like Anubis I get a bit antsy over some of the threads so I try to just not read them.

As to the question.....I have little choice in vets. We only have one within 200km or more. I don't really like him much BUT if my dog is ever bitten by a snake etc HE is the one who will more than likely be trying to save his life so I just don't burn my bridges. Just gotta take the good with the bad......if I could go elsewhere.....I would.

[Anubis_Star]

Originally Posted by selzer

My first line of canine health-related issues is myself. I have dealt with a lot. What I haven't dealt with my second line is a breeder who has been raising GSDs for over 50 years, has worked as a vet tech and has taught some vets a thing or two over the years. I have found that with a well-worded search you can find on here case histories for a LOT of problems. In fact, one of them completely mirrored Cujo's demise, from the beginning symptoms to the final verdict, and the same preliminary diagnosis were made. That does not make the person with the dog that had the same issue that presented the same a veterinarian, but it also does not make her experience invalid because she was not. We still consulted the vet a number of times during the weeks that he was ill. We did not say, "Oh it's cancer, lets just skip all the vet part and have them euthanize him." No one is suggesting that.

I think, for the most part this site does point people to vets more often than not. Vet, Now, over and over again. My puppy is doing this... You need to take him to the vet now and why are you still reading this?

"AMAZING vet, horrible people person." Don't you see this as a terrible handicap? I am sorry, but dogs don't talk. They cannot pick up the phone and ask for an appointment. They are totally dependent on US to not only get them in to see the vet, but to communicate effectively what is happening with the dog, and to understand completely what we need to do about it. Disliking the vet, feeling intimidated by the vet, not feeling respected by the vet, and hamper what things we tell the vet to our dog's cost. If you had a vet that didn't believe in bloodwork, you would probably not think him such a great vet, but what a person can tell the vet about the dog's symptoms and behavior changes, are probably just as important as the numbers on the bloodwork for many diseases. Instead of patching things up for this guy, maybe it would be best for him to learn to be more of a people person, so that he isn't shunning his best source of information. And just because you made the person feel a little better before walking out the door does not mean they will not think twice before subjecting themselves to another dose of Dr. PeopleAren'tWorthMyTime.

It would amaze you with the number of vets that are bad with people but great with the animals. Which is why a technician that has great people-skills can be a huge asset to any hospital. She isn't the one doing the initial triage, getting an initial feel. She isn't the one going over the estimate, explaining what everything is and why we feel we want to run that. She isn't the one discharging the patient, giving the client final communications with us and sending them home. I am, as are my wonderful technician co-workers. If she was great with people and had the medical knowledge she does, she would about be perfect haha but sadly, that's not the case. She's a very nice, funny, caring person. But if you don't know her, she can come off as cold. Her jokes aren't always understood. Etc. But she sees things MANY doctors miss, even on referral cases. She has, IMHO, "fixed" a lot of animals that may not of made it at their rDVM. Because of her knowledge, extra certification, skills, etc. People come back to us because they feel they are treated well, they feel their animals are well taken care of, and because they see results. We get very few complaints.

And you, I know you are an extremely smart, compassionate owner capable of making common sense and rational decisions based on what your doctor has told you and your own research. I've seen that in the posts you make. But, you are the minority. And I have seen that MANY of the posters on here are mature, smart, etc... one reason I moved here from other forums. Again, minority of the pet population. Most owners are not like that. They go into owning a pet with a very naive mindset. And not everyone can do their own "intelligent" internet research and find the right advice. Or they don't know how to describe symptoms. How many choking pets have I seen that have actually been coughing from kennel cough? Too many to count. Or the owners that tell me one thing in the room, and then tell the doctor a completely different story (Oh no vomiting at all. Yes doctor, he's been vomiting all night). That's not bashing on the owners AT ALL. They are there, with their pet, concerned, and I love that. I would rather have a kennel cough come in for "choking" over a dystocia dying at home because they didn't want to come in on emergency. It's just the realistic side of our job that many do not see or understand.

As I've said before, research, get second opinions, but then talk to your vet. The person seeing you, seeing your animal. I've suggested things to my doctors (or asked them about things, I should say), that I've read online. And we've sat down together and looked into. And maybe we both learn something new. And that is why I love my doctors, and that is why I work with them.