Back and forth on the neutering decision, ugh, help!

[chelle]

I don't mean to start another "should I" or "shouldn't I" neuter thread... more like taking everything into account, would it be the better choice for US.?

This is going to run long, I think. TIA if you make it through. This decision is really important to me.

Bailey is right at seven months old.

Here are what I think are the most pertinent details about our lives.

Bailey loves dogs, all dogs. Too much at times, in that at the dog park, he wants to befriend all of them. If one isn't receptive, he doesn't seem to take the cue and still tries to play. Just recently, if he encounters such a dog and he tries to play but they get hostile, he'll bark back - ie, return the behavior. By that, I mean bark, show some teeth, but not attempt to bite the dog or go any nearer to it - just return the same behavior. This type of thing has only occured with dogs that probably shouldn't be at the park, anyway and don't want to play with *any* of the dogs. (Stayed close to the owner, seemed tense, not happy to be there, not making any attempt to engage with other dogs, etc.) When he approaches a dog that I can see isn't receptive, I usually call him/distract him off before it comes to anything like this. I think this has happened 2-3 times now when I wasn't quick enough or the other dog didn't show signs I noticed before it began growling/snapping/barking. Those couple times, I immediately got Bailey away from the other dog. (The last time was yesterday. When their dog snapped on Bailey, the owner said, "He doesn't like other dogs." Ok. You're in a dog park, dude?! Anyway, I digress...)

Part of me wonders if he doesn't get the "hint" because at home, the 4 y/o Shiba is one of those all show, no go types of dogs. She acts fierce, makes lots of sounds, but that's it. In a way, I wonder if Bailey has "learned" through her that no doesn't necessarily mean no.

Yet, I wonder if these small things represent Bailey simply going into adolescence, sexual maturity, etc.

Today, for the first time ever, he tried to hump. (The Shiba) I shut him down immediately and with a strong NO, which I reserve for the worst offenses. I hate humpers. Can't stand it. The Shiba is spayed, so it obviously wasn't sexual, but yet maybe another sign of him growing up and asserting himself with her.

My yard is partially fenced. He's usually offleash when we're out there playing together. Sometimes I have him drag a long lead, but not usually. The few times he's bolted were for squirrels and didn't go far. (Just to the tree where they were and he then attempts to climb the tree. ) Another time or two he bolted into the woods, but came back when called. Point being, my yard is not 100% secure.

We do a lot of offleash stuff. Walks, trails, fields, you name it. I've never had any problem whatsoever. He's been doing this with me since 11 weeks. This is something I enjoy and want to always do with him.

We go to the dog park once or twice a week also. No problems there other than what was mentioned above, but a couple of dogs have taken an *instant* dislike to Bailey. One a GSD, one a Husky. In both cases, those dogs wanted to kill him when he hadn't even come near them. Thank God their owners leashed them up and took them out. Both dogs mentioned were male, I'm not sure whether they were intact or not, or whether that even matters.

None of my neighbors have dogs and I don't have any close neighbors. I have no idea from how far away a male can sense a bitch in heat.

Physically, Bailey is a touch on the lanky side. He's been filling out nicely. His coat is thickening and not as close to his body as when he was younger. He's developing the "scruff" around the neck, it's really thickening up, as is the hair on his back, especially by his tail. A pic from today: (sorry for blur, he doesn't pose for me well.) He's 55 lbs. His mom is 65 lbs, his dad about 60 lbs, so I think he's almost done growing heightwise.



His physical characteristics are not all that important to me. His health and general, overall welfare ARE what matters to me.

Bailey is a mix and cannot be allowed to breed.

I'm thinking now about how Leerburg said if you have a dog with aggression, if you neuter between 6-8 months, it may help a great deal. I don't *think* I'm really seeing aggression issues; rather the beginning of adolescence/sexual "coming of age," but I thought I'd run this by you all and get some opinions.

WOULD YOU NEUTER NOW? Is there something I've said above that I'm not interpreting correctly... or something I'm missing altogether?

[Deuce]

I'll give you my input

I had Deuce neutered in July at 13 months old. He's still the same dog, nothing has changed about him other than he doesn't try to hump his dog bed anymore nor does he mark in the house. He's still growing and filling out as before, so there isn't any "stunting" that i've noticed. Overall, it's a personal preference as to when you neuter but if you're not going to breed, he needs to be neutered.

As far as him growing and barking at other dogs at the dog park, it sounds more like him being a puppy and playing than agression.

Best of luck

[Draugr]

Just sounds like puppy behavior to me . Not aggression. He's just learning where his place in the world is and other dogs are letting his "puppy license" expire if you know what I mean.

I'd say if you are confident in your ability to keep him from breeding (and it sounds like you are quite adept at doing that and understand the seriousness of it), there's no reason to have him neutered.

As far as other dogs taking an instant dislike to him - I've read that's something neutered dogs often do with intact dogs. I can see how that might work - the more "male" scent of the intact dog, relative to the scent of the neutered dog, comes off as dominant, and the neutered dog doesn't take well to that...but I often wonder if that isn't just sample bias.

The ASPCA reports that 75% of owned pets are neutered - I'm not sure what that statistic is with dogs, specifically, but I expect that number is strongly influenced by cats, since intact cats are something of a nightmare to live with indoors, while dogs can get along just fine. And I expect more female dogs are spayed than male dogs are neutered so you might be looking at something closer to 50% or so with male dogs at the end of the day. That's just speculation though.

So with that in mind I wonder if it's just a sample bias - if you pick any one dog at random, more often than not, he's probably going to be neutered (this obviously varies by geographical area, but, we're talking about "at random."). So showing that "instant dislike" might just be a consequence of personality quirks or how the dog was raised (poor socialization), rather than a lack of testicles.

The behavioral changes are best addressed by training. Surgery is kind of a crapshoot IMHO. It might help, it might not, even in the case of the truly sexually dimorphic behaviors that hormones do affect. Personally I would rather take the path that is specifically tailored for the problem and is not irreversible. Side effects can happen and while - if you go by "owner report" - most dogs don't experience temperamental changes, some do (some for the better, some for the worse). Nearly removing all of one of a dog's primary hormones will not leave you with zero effects. It is too complex and intricate a system for that to happen. The question is just to what degree your dog will change but I think it's safe to say the answer to that is usually, for most dogs, "not much."

In my case (if neutering was even an option for me - I don't believe in altering my own pets but that is just personal belief I am not coming down on anyone or judging anyone for thinking different), I definitely wouldn't neuter NOW, though.

Best of luck on your decision. Whichever way you decide, that statistics are still clear: The biggest risk you are taking with him, no matter what you do, is that he (gasp, oh no!) will live a long and happy life :P.

~

As far as your yard situation, as long as his recall remains solid and he doesn't seem inclined to stray from you, and you're supervising him whenever he is out, I don't think that is a problem. Just watch for any change in his reliability and address it as soon as it comes up. Samson's recall has always been great. He will go off into the woods to play meet & greet with squirrels (for some reason they don't seem too keen to play the same game with him), but as soon as I call his name he is turning around and right back at my side. We have a small fenced-in area immediately behind the house but TBH that's really only used when I let him out of the house to relieve himself. Any outside play is done in the remainder of the yard which is 100% unfenced.

~

Physical characteristics are really not that important, you are right, but remember that when he's older and arthritis or heaven forbid, dysplasia might set in, that extra musculature could be helpful in offsetting the effects of the bone/joint problems. So they are not 100% unrelated. Just mostly :P. Samson will be 2 years old this Saturday and even in the last six months I have noticed secondary sex characteristics becoming more prominent. I expect there will be a noticeable difference even a year out from now.

Anyway that's my input/two cents :P. I hope it helped.

[ponyfarm]

I am having Tim nuetered at 20 months. He seems to be about done filling out. He is a mix, so no breeding, obviously! (Sorry Tim )
Def a personal preference, but I have noticed the last few months that he is so into any girl smell..you know the lip flutter, drool, etc. He is also much more keen on following random scents now off lead. I am sure partially due to his teenage stage, but I always wonder would an in-heat coyote make him follow the scent?
I am sure Bailey will be well behaved either way, since you work with him, but other intact males really seem to notice other intact males. When you come across unmannerly males, it can set them off. Happened to us, with another family members dogs. For me, I will feel better know Tim won't have to deal with excess hormones he doesnt need.
I already scheduled his big day..so I am at peace. (well, kinda)

[JakodaCD OA]

I have had a couple of males that I neutered later in life both around 3 years old.

One male I had, I was showing, he never humped anything in his life, what drove me crazy tho, was , if he was even near a female in heat,,he'd be drooling, teeth chattering, and frankly his brains left him

I stopped showing him, decided to neuter him, and his brains went back where they belonged -- in his head

Certainly not to say all males are like this, mine was.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by Draugr

... other dogs are letting his "puppy license" expire if you know what I mean.

As far as other dogs taking an instant dislike to him - I've read that's something neutered dogs often do with intact dogs. I can see how that might work - the more "male" scent of the intact dog, relative to the scent of the neutered dog, comes off as dominant, and the neutered dog doesn't take well to that...

It might help, it might not, even in the case of the truly sexually dimorphic behaviors that hormones do affect.

Just watch for any change in his reliability and address it as soon as it comes up.

...when he's older and arthritis or heaven forbid, dysplasia might set in, that extra musculature could be helpful in offsetting the effects of the bone/joint problems...

Thank you, lots of good info. Yes, sigh, I think that pup license is right on expiration. I wish I could file an extension.

If I had to guess, I'd say the speuter rate in my area is pretty high. Likely better than 50%. It is pushed very hard here. Funny that my vet only asked me once and has never again "pestered" me. I appreciate that. At the dog park, the majority of males do appear to be neutered. (Well, if a lack of testicles is any indicator. How strange for me to admit I look for gonads on the male dogs.)

It's certainly been on my mind that there would likely be a point that if I kept him intact that going to the dog park may need to end. My strategy as of late was to try to go during off-peak hours but that's backfired. The people with the worst behaved, most DA dogs have the idea to go during off-peak hours, come to find out. On last visit, the volunteer was at the front gate and said, "Well, there's a pitbull offleash up there that already got in a fight, so just be careful, and if there's any trouble, I'll have the owner put him on leash." I won't even go into how many levels of wrong this was.

As far as "sexually dimorphic behaviors," I've been watching for these, as I certainly am not keen on dealing with them. Bailey hasn't marked indoors ever. He may have to pee in two different spots before he's done. He's never humped anything/anyone before trying it on the Shiba today. He has no desire to be too far from me. So far. Maybe I panicked with the hump today.

Again, thanks for the info. I read every speuter thread that comes around and sometimes I wonder if that's a wise idea, since I often just end up doubting myself. I just want to be as informed as possible.

Originally Posted by ponyfarm

...I have noticed the last few months that he is so into any girl smell..you know the lip flutter, drool, etc. He is also much more keen on following random scents now off lead....

Yes, that's what also concerns me since we do so much offleash. This is my first male so no, can't say I know about the lip flutter or drool!

Originally Posted by JakodaCD OA

I have had a couple of males that I neutered later in life both around 3 years old.

One male I had, I was showing, he never humped anything in his life, what drove me crazy tho, was , if he was even near a female in heat,,he'd be drooling, teeth chattering, and frankly his brains left him

I stopped showing him, decided to neuter him, and his brains went back where they belonged -- in his head

Certainly not to say all males are like this, mine was.

Teeth chattering?! Wow, these boys do get a little nutso, don't they. Curious when that behavior began? I've said in the past I wanted to get the the two year mark before neuter.

Also can anyone say really how far away a male can smell / sense a female in heat? Does a male randomly wander *hoping* he'll find one, or does he generally sense it and then attempt to go find it? As mentioned before, I have not raised a male before, I'm clueless!!!!

Thanks everyone.

[Wild Wolf]

I have very strong opinions on the topic of neutering and spaying, and that may be because I am a certified Animal Care technician and I see pets altered every day at work.

The sexual organs have another purpose other than causing the drive to reproduce. Sexual development in dogs is paired with certain hormones that aid in growth and development. Long story short: Dogs need time to grow up, and they need their sexual organs to grow properly and fully. Let them mature... wait until your pup is about a year old before you neuter.

[selzer]

Most of my dogs did not hump or act crazy. But they would smell and lick the spot where the in-heat female urinated in the yard. Ick! And then they would mark on it.

They are dogs. If you are going to freak out if the boy displays a male-behavior, maybe you are better off neutering.

I do not agree that every dog that is not going to be bred should be neutered. One can easily manage an intact dog without ever breeding them. Not that hard.

Not sure what the fence or lack thereof has to do with the price of rice in china. If you are worried about the lack of fencing, fix it. Speutered dogs go after squirrels or deer and run in front of cars and get smooshed. I have always worked my boys when I had them out front where there was no fence and neither of them ever tried to run off after a scent in the wind. (Possibly because the best scents were coming from my own back yard.

Your dog, your decision. I think that if you main concern is male behaviors, neutering now to get any benefit is probably your best bet. Neutering after sexual maturity is unlikely to make any dent in any set male behaviors.

[Wild Wolf]

I have a couple more things to add:

It is possible for a responsible owner to keep an intact male safe and free from wandering or breeding - it just takes responsibility on your part! I've seen it done many times. I plan to do it myself.

Animals have sexual organs for a reason - removing them is highly unnatural despite the benefits of altering (cancer prevention, etc). Nothing on the dog should be altered until the animal has finished growing, unless there is a serious medical concern.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by selzer

... If you are going to freak out if the boy displays a male-behavior, maybe you are better off neutering.

...Not sure what the fence or lack thereof has to do with the price of rice in china. If you are worried about the lack of fencing, fix it.

Your dog, your decision. I think that if you main concern is male behaviors, neutering now to get any benefit is probably your best bet. Neutering after sexual maturity is unlikely to make any dent in any set male behaviors.

If I'm going to "freak out?" Really? So sorry if it comes across that I'm freaking out. I have not owned a male before. I don't know what to expect. I know about "typical" male behavior only via what I read on the internet and here.

The price of rice in China... well... I'd suppose it's likely much cheaper than a fence in the US of A... but that's not really the issue, now is it, Miss Smarty Pants? The issue was that I was trying to explain my situation, in that Bailey is not outside alone, but even when I am out there with him, he *can* take off, if he really felt the urge. I do not know how far away a dog can sense a bitch in heat and what the odds are that he'd go crazy for a dog a mile away and bolt unexpectedly. I'm thinking about the future, as he becomes a teen, as he reaches sexual maturity. I thought that might, perhaps, be the mature way to deal with my concerns -- ask about them BEFORE they're here.

Since you've shown concern for my fencing situation, it is this: this property is 2.75 acres. I do not own all of it. I own .84 acres. The 2 acres to my east, that I do NOT own, are dense woods. The area to my north, which IS my property, is fenced with tall privacy fencing all along the border. The area to the west is fenced with the chicken wire type stuff, which isn't great, but does the job. The area he would be able to "escape" or "bolt" from is NOT owned by me. The stupid property line literally cuts my driveway in half as it nears the top of the drive. Hard to explain, but bottom line, it is fenced the best it can be unless I buy the two acres beside me (can you loan me 40K?) or the current owner gives me permission to attempt to fence in 2 acres. So there it is. You tell me "fix it." Any suggestions?

Your last paragraph is helpful.