Ca/P Ratio for Rawfed Puppies

[marshies]

Hi All,

I'm still tossing between raw-fed and orijen LBP, and 2 things hold me back from raw:

1) I can't just read the back of the bag and know exactly how I've met her nutritional needs

2) My laziness

So in making this thread, I'm hoping to address part 1. Was wondering if the Ca/P ratio in a typical raw diet of 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ is in a safe range for growing pups.

What resources have you used to help you make raw-feeding more scientific? I'm very insecure about just throwing together a few different types of meats, bones, and organs based off a % of her body weight, and want the security and comfort of a well-researched and scientific diet. What to do!

[onyx'girl]

It is absolutely safe for puppies! Look at Welcome to the Raw Dog Ranch for information. Raw feeding isn't just throwing together a few different types of meat,bone and organ, there is more to it.

But it isn't that difficult once you begin.
I think feeding raw green tripe is essential in balance as well. This site has many good articles on raw feeding: A Place for Paws - Columbiana, Ohio - Reference Articles

[carmspack]

Marshies don't worry. If you live in the Toronto (GTA) area I can direct you to suppliers of good grass fed / free range meats , already ground with bone (from same source as protein) -- very reasonably priced, less than the pre-mades at the pet food store. This includes beef , lamb, chicken turkey. The turkey is great , from a butcher that is only interested in white meat for deli cuts - the rest of the bird he grinds .
You want to mix it up a bit . Feed too much lamb as the exclusive meat and you have a higher copper level. Red meat , the darker it is will have a higher glutamine profile , heart meat example - and iron .
Chicken will have omega 3 (fat) and chondroitin from the ground necks. You can buy 4 ounce cubes of straight green tripe , frozen, and 3-4 ounce cubes of organ meat with tripe. There are markets where you can buy pork tongue, heart, turkey and chicken gizzards , trachea , all sorts of things .
Frozen sardines -- . It is very easy , not at all expensive .
These are the things I carry at the "market" in frozen blocks .
My dogs, the whole bunch of them basically get chicken carcass - meaty bone - fat and skin left on -- stuffed inside the carcass is a smallish ball of ground chicken or with my supplements and oil , or just the supplements let sit in some water to swell , reconstitute and some oil.
I never weigh or measure or calculate . I adjust to the dogs needs. Sometimes, just like us , we are peckish or need extra , and other days not so much.

What does Robin suggest . I am sure she is keenly interested to make sure that Amareto becomes the best dog ever .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[marshies]

Thanks guys.

@ Carmen, Robin said it's entirely up to me how I feed Amaretto, as long as it is a quality diet. She listed a few of the kibble brands she recommends, as well as raw as options to consider. But she really hasn't limited me in any way.

[lhczth]

I have raised quite a few puppies on raw including weaning 5 litters. If you want to be scientific, though, I can not help you. I don't weigh or measure what I feed. The pups eat pretty much the same things the adults do except in different amounts and spread into three meals until around 6 months. I feed chicken - backs, quarters, cut up whole (at times), liver, heart, gizzards; beef - heart, burger, liver, kidney, tripe, neck bones; turkey - necks, wings, thighs, backs, whole birds (when on sale); mutton - just about the entire animal but the leg bones; lamb - heart; pork - neck, heart, roasts; rabbit (rarely); duck (rarely); salmon body oils; organic yogurt a few times a week; eggs from free ranging hens (yolks only and the whole at other times); some leftover cooked veggies and frozen fruit (this is a treat and not a regular part of their diet) and every once in awhile they get canned sardines or mackerel. Mostly I feed turkey, chicken and pork RMB and the other RMB are less often. The MM then is mostly beef or pork. OM - chicken or beef.

Something my dogs get that others don't is field mice or rabbits they catch when running with me in the summer. The puppies don't run with me (since I am on a tractor) so this isn't part of their diet. They also eat chicken poop which I would really prefer they didn't.

I have converted most of my puppy buyers to raw and they also feed pretty much like I do though some buy the complete mixes.

Come to think of it I need to get some turkey and heart out of the freezer for tonight.

[Lauri & The Gang]

Originally Posted by lhczth

They also eat chicken poop which I would really prefer they didn't.

Ha! My dogs treated the chickens like Pez dispensers. They would follow them around just WAITING for the birds to tip their tails and then ... SLURP!!



All but 2 of my current pack have either been raw fed since birth or were switched when I got them. I have my third litter of raw-weaned Chinese Cresteds now (2 pups left) and two of my adult Cresteds have never had kibble.

[marshies]

Thanks again guys.

I think I'm suffering from analysis paralysis in this whole raw-feeding deal. I'm slowly coming to terms with not needing to know what every calorie she eats adds to her overall macro and micro nutritional needs. It didn't seem to make sense that I obsessed MORE over what I will feed her than what I am eating myself.

Following the advice here, here is what I am going to do. Please advise on if you think this is a reasonable starting step, and what I can do to amend and improve it.

Her adult weight should be 70 lbs max (or so I guess), and that puts her 2% daily raw feeding weight to 1.4 lbs. Ready to adjust if she seems pudgy or too thin.

On the day she comes, she leaves Robin's at 12PM and gets here at around 8PM. She'll be STARVING. I'm going to boil some chicken (about .7lb) and cut it into little pieces. These will be used as greeting treats for the family and me. At Robin's suggestion, will also be offering water at pick-up.

When we get home, will feed the remainder of the meal. I'm being prepped with some of the common drugs used to settle upset stomachs, and am thinking about feeding her some in precaution. She has been fed a good kibble until now, and I'm worried that the combined stress of a whole new lifestyle and cold-turkey raw feeding might cause her to have poo problems. I'm ready for the poo-problems, but just want to minimize them if at all possible.

Week 1:

Continue on with plain chicken (leg quarters and backs) for 1 week until she settles down (I've read 2 weeks on 1 starter protein, but that doesn't sound very balanced AT all).

Week 2:

If she does well on plain chicken, will start to add in a bit of liver on the same meal that she eats a chicken back. I have some freeze-dried liver treat samples, and I'm thinking of using those because they come in much smaller and more manageable portions.

Week 3:

If she does well on chicken and liver for the second week, will rotate in canned Tripett tripe the third week and continue to feed chicken. Hoping to also give her a knuckle bone (from cow? pig? whatever they sell at the store).

Week 4:

If she does well till now, I think her digestive system has built the bacteria culture it needs to support a raw diet. In week 4, I'm hoping to have her on chicken, liver, and one of heart, tongue or some other muscular innard.

I'm not sure if this transition is too slow, too unbalanced or acceptable. In the long run, I hope to have a 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ/other feeding ratio. I'm hoping to add fish oil if not raw sardines, like Carmen suggested, pork, turkey, and whatever else I can find in the long run. I also will feed either Olewo carrots or purreed carrots along with whatever other vegetables I'm having occasionally. Though I know it's not 100% needed, it makes ME feel better.

In terms of training treats, I'm hoping to just cut off some meat from her daily servings, boil, and cut up to train. Will also be adding in Natural Balance Duck and Potato LID rolls, and waiting for other great training treat ideas. I really liked feeding kibble because that meant I could train with her meal, but alas, it seems that raw is the best choice for her.

My parents really hope that I will stick to feeding a quality kibble because they worry whether or not my busy schedule will allow me to feed Amaretto right. I am inclined to agree with them, so wanted to post this very rough plan of mine on here and receive some feedback. If I completely have the method wrong right now, I'll go out tomorrow and buy a bag of Orijen LBP and transition her from her old kibble to Orijen at the following pace:

Day 1: 25% Orijen, 75% old kibble
Day 2: 25% Orijen, 75% old kibble
Day 3: 50% Orijen, 50% old kibble
Day 4: 50% Orijen, 50% old kibble
Day 5: 75% Orijen, 25% old kibble
Day 6: 75% Orijen, 25% old kibble
Day 7: 100% Orijen

HUGE long post, but many thoughts needed!

[marshies]

More dog stuff came today! Feeling more stress to sort out my feeding plan!

[robinhuerta]

Xuan....you put more thought into Amaretto's life & diet...than many people do their own children's! LOL!
GOD....I hope she is EVERYTHING you want her to be.....I'm starting to feel the pressure & stress......

I'm going to go take a Xanax and lie down........LOL!

[4score]

I feel your pain! We picked up Walter last weekend and he was already started on a combined Raw diet. The more I read, the more nervous we got. I decided to go to an area pet store and buy several chicken blends from Small Batch. It's all pre-mixed - though not a "batch" and therefore not to be considered 100%....supplements will eventually have to be added. I wanted to continue the pup on chicken that he was used to. I too, am planning to hit up the feed store for some safety Orijen. I don't have a LOT of idle freezer space and although I joined a local co-op, I think I will have to buy fairly large amounts. Add to that - I don't know exactly WHAT to go to after this chicken blend. I also don't know "when" to change it up. May have to take your plan to the butcher and see what's available.

Still figuring this stuff out. (Along with crate training)