Jaakko turn vs Ketschker turn

[wildo]

Do you know the difference? I was watching this awesome video of Tori Self when I noticed the crazy turn at 0:14-

You Tube

You Tube

What the heck was that?? Wasn't exactly a Ketschker was it? No- there was no backwards send with the off hand. Instead, the dog was sent forward across the body and followed by a blind. This is referred to as a Jaakko. Here's a video showing this:

Turn Reward Training for Agility - September 12 - YouTube

Turn Reward Training for Agility - September 12 - YouTube

Now, to be fair, and full disclosure, Tori herself refers to this as nothing more than a blind cross (straight) into a blind cross (curved). And it might well be. But the turn itself is referred to as a Jaakko turn.

I sent the video to Steve at AgilityNerd who indicated that the only real difference is that in a Ketschker, one rocks their body backward to cue the wrap, while in the Jaakko one throws the dog across their body forwards to cue the wrap.

Is the difference enough to warrant the new name? That's debatable. However, I'd claim that if the dog reads one better than the other- then yes, the difference is absolute. Some dogs will read the Jaakko as an "across the feet" rear cross [Steve's wording], and therefore not wrap the jump in the correct direction. For other dogs, they may read the send perfectly and the movement may get you milliseconds ahead. By eliminating your rearward body movement, that means you're already moving forward-- so more ahead of the dog.

The difference is subtle. Very subtle. But those few milliseconds may be the difference between first and second place.

For comparison of a near exact course map from the Tori Self run, here's a mirror image of the sequence using a Ketschker instead:

Blending Blind Cross to Ketschker - YouTube

Blending Blind Cross to Ketschker - YouTube

[KristiM]

I had to watch that like 5 times to wrap my head around what she was doing lol. I just don't seem to "get" these maneuvers! I think I'm going I have to try them myself to be able to really wrap my head around it. Most of them just look like a great opportunity to lose my knees to a 75 pound dog moving as quickly as possible lol. They are super fun to watch!

[wildo]

Well you're doing good if it only took you 5 times to see it. I must have watched the videos 20 times before I wrapped my head around it!

[KristiM]

So is the real benefit of these "fancy" (mind boggling lol) maneuvers that they get better collection from the dog? There are obviously other ways to accomplish the same thing, are these just achieving slightly better collection and hence slightly tighter turns?

[wildo]

Well yeah, "better" is subjective, isn't it. A staunch Derrett handler would scoff at such moves calling them no better. My opinion is that it's hard to turn your nose up at what's winning. Even Susan Garrett is now embracing blind crosses (though I've yet to see her get THIS fancy). Personally, I think that the ass-pass (Ketschker) absolutely does cue collection better than just body position and deceleration. For my team, turning INTO the dog and putting up an off hand is like hitting the brakes. So for my team, you can't get much more collection than with a Ketschker.

Now this Jaakko turn gets complicated in the collection department. You still have the turning into the dog- but-- you're still sending them forward across your body. So while you might be able to "just get" the ass-pass (and get good collection from it), the Jaakko turn is likely going to need some heavy training- or at least moderate training. At the very least, it's something I want to play around with. I've never in my life wished winter away, but now I'm dying to do some backyard agility training.

[KristiM]

I agree, "better" is always going to be what the dog reads best. I am reading through Linda mecklenburg's book developing handler skills right now. I have to say I LOVE her handling system! The way she introduces and breaks down collection works extremely well for both my dogs. Especially havoc, he is a dog that I can easily ruin because he is so in tune with my "natural cues" I get mad at him for stuff that I am cueing, he responds very appropriately but I don't realize I'm cueing it and get mad. He had responded beautifully to her "system" and it's easy and makes sense for me personally as well. I jut got her DVD handling common sequences, super excited to watch it.

The jaakko sure looks cool, but to me does look like it would work better for a shorter striding dog. I will have to experiment with these to see if it can be pulled off with Odin's natural HUGE stride. I think this would be a nice tool for havoc who has a much tighter striding style. (Too bad he's still out)