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Old 11-13-2012, 01:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Yep, recalls off high distractions has been all my crews downfall & hard to train, esp with deer! I know more time & work needs done in that dept. If wasn't for agility equpiment & ruining fun in that dept, I would correct. This is a hard one for me as I want to, but do not want to bring neg with agility. Why asking here.

I do not want a robot dog, but not one that blows me off to go do what she wishes either. That's why I am in agility, for FUN! I see so many at shows with it seems little obed skills, pulls owner on lead. Some like this, keeps the drive I guess. I prob ruined Skyrah's drive to a degree with since day one obed stuff, but I like a dog with manners.

Ok, not a pup, but been told these lines are slow to mature.
There's very few people that could call their dog off a deer, but that's not what you need to do. There's no reason not to correct your dog for blowing you off on a recall when you call her like you mean it. The trick is to be very sure to praise her immediately and then repeat the situation so she has success so you can praise her again for doing it correctly.

Also, there's a difference between an obedience recall and your dog making a mistake while running and not listening to you. This is when you have to decide if it was your fault by not telling her what to do correctly and in a timely fashion - this is usually the case - or was she actually giving you the finger - this I would go and correct - or was she just new and went a little crazy so made a mistake - this I would just go get her and repeat the exercise.

My dogs have been doing obedience from day one and have a very high level of competency in it; they also have manners. That said, I do let them drag me around at agility because I want them to have fun, but they do listen when I put my foot down. Agility is like taking a kid to the playground where they get to let loose and let it all hang out within limits.

The lines are slow to mature is an excuse for not expecting your dog to behave.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:24 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The lines are slow to mature is an excuse for not expecting your dog to behave.
Hey I agree with Elaine on this!

It is my understanding that this phrase, "slow to mature" is ONLY applicable to bite work in protection. That is the source and usage. There have been a couple threads about this.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:40 PM   #23 (permalink)
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There's very few people that could call their dog off a deer, but that's not what you need to do. There's no reason not to correct your dog for blowing you off on a recall when you call her like you mean it. The trick is to be very sure to praise her immediately and then repeat the situation so she has success so you can praise her again for doing it correctly.

Also, there's a difference between an obedience recall and your dog making a mistake while running and not listening to you. This is when you have to decide if it was your fault by not telling her what to do correctly and in a timely fashion - this is usually the case - or was she actually giving you the finger - this I would go and correct - or was she just new and went a little crazy so made a mistake - this I would just go get her and repeat the exercise.

My dogs have been doing obedience from day one and have a very high level of competency in it; they also have manners. That said, I do let them drag me around at agility because I want them to have fun, but they do listen when I put my foot down. Agility is like taking a kid to the playground where they get to let loose and let it all hang out within limits.

The lines are slow to mature is an excuse for not expecting your dog to behave.
Thanks!!!!!!!!

Few quick things. She has a head, well, lol, but really her focus has been great. Love this girl! Just wanting to gain that brain & guess worry too much about corrections. I just have seen it done with other people, old class I was at & dogs did just to do & was not fun to them nor were they happy dogs.

With my older girl. I have had show issues with redoing stuff, like if she goes around a jump & this is a no, no for her, I shut her down.

Anyway, I do want her to know right from wrong, but I guess not sure how to go about it b/c do not want to take the fun out of it.

The trainer did not want me walking up to her to grab her either. I guess thinking this may shut her down, not sure why she did not want me to do? Should have asked.

Tugging & bite work she loves! I do take tugs to class, but still training with treats as I just felt cannot throw my toy around in a class setting as I do at home. 8/

Thanks all SO much again.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:05 PM   #24 (permalink)
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With all your talk of your dog shutting down over just a correction is concerning. The fact that your trainer doesn't want you to grab her to correct her is also concerning. Is this because your dog is overly sensitive? You give poor corrections? Or is it that giving the correction is inappropriate?Or do you have a stupid trainer?You need to ask your trainer about this because we can't see what's really going on.

No reason not to use a tug in class if that's what gets your dog going. You don't have to throw it, just tease him with it and play tuggie.You can also toss it directly to him to catch to reward him in place. I work exclusively with a ball with my older dog and only with food with my little demon spawn because the ball makes him lose his mind and he won't leave me. I look forward to the day when I can use the ball in agility on the little guy because it's so much easier to use.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:15 PM   #25 (permalink)
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With all your talk of your dog shutting down over just a correction is concerning. The fact that your trainer doesn't want you to grab her to correct her is also concerning. Is this because your dog is overly sensitive? You give poor corrections? Or is it that giving the correction is inappropriate?Or do you have a stupid trainer?You need to ask your trainer about this because we can't see what's really going on.

No reason not to use a tug in class if that's what gets your dog going. You don't have to throw it, just tease him with it and play tuggie.You can also toss it directly to him to catch to reward him in place. I work exclusively with a ball with my older dog and only with food with my little demon spawn because the ball makes him lose his mind and he won't leave me. I look forward to the day when I can use the ball in agility on the little guy because it's so much easier to use.
No, not this dog thread is about shutting down. Not sure why this new trainer did not want me to go get or try to grab her? My thought was did not wanting me to shut her down or cause any neg, but to lure her with the food instead? Just my guess. I need to ask. Trainers are good & best a teaching skills imo. They have been to world. I just feel, sure I can train all day here at home, but as I seen, alittle diff story not at home, plus I am seeking handling help. 8/

I use "Here" for my recalls agility & norm stuff wise. My "Come" I expect a front sit & only really use this when working obed.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Sorry, was thinking you meant my older dog shutting down at a show.

I have seen dogs shut down when they make mistakes or you try over & over with them. 8/ I have seen it in my own dogs. They do not like to make mistakes & when corrected, may just shut down. Thus why I have been up in the air about correcting while doing agility & why I asked about engaging with her again when she does her own thing without a correction????? I would love to say, "NO or ATT" when she did wrong, but have just feared any neg while training in agility. Even been mixed about saying, "OPPS or TRY AGAIN". So far I just have been redoing till they got it & then Click, verbal, YES & treats or toy.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:28 PM   #27 (permalink)
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My instructor won't let the dog fail more than twice. After the 2nd time we either put a leash on, or break the sequence up if that's what we were working on. If you or your trainer don't believe in "any" negative association during training because of your dog or the way they train I really don't have much more advice. I've never worried about correcting, or at least verbally letting my dog know he's doing something incorrect and I don't worry about a "no" breaking his confidence when on an agility course.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:40 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Sorry, was thinking you meant my older dog shutting down at a show.

I have seen dogs shut down when they make mistakes or you try over & over with them. 8/ I have seen it in my own dogs. They do not like to make mistakes & when corrected, may just shut down. Thus why I have been up in the air about correcting while doing agility & why I asked about engaging with her again when she does her own thing without a correction????? I would love to say, "NO or ATT" when she did wrong, but have just feared any neg while training in agility. Even been mixed about saying, "OPPS or TRY AGAIN". So far I just have been redoing till they got it & then Click, verbal, YES & treats or toy.
If this dog doesn't have a shutting down problem, then don't worry about it. There are a lot of dogs that can't handle any sort of correction and that's their problem, not yours.

The concept of no negativity in agility training is total and complete nonsense so long as it's appropriate. This is why you see some dogs at trial that are completely out of control.

You have to do what your dog needs and not what other people's dogs need.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:20 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Wow! so much information and help from everyone so sorry if I repeat...

I would NOT use corrections unless there was death or mayhem with injuries about to come about. Your dog is still really young and having gone thru GloryB just really maturing this year at THREE, know to be careful in training....

You've just started up in this new fun class with new dogs/people/equipment, right? So alot of what you are seeing may just fade away over the next few weeks when she realizes that the game is the same, just the locale is changed. Won't be so much fun to dart off and away to do a contact when she realizes THAT won't give a treat/reward, but sticking near mom and doing what she asks does!

I'd DEFINITELY have the tug toy on me at all times (I keep mine tucked in the back of my pants) not to throw away but to draw the dog back in for a rousing game of tug WITH you.

Make sure your pup is hungry.

Make sure you are using REAL treats. The chicken, beef, cheese, special stuff that only comes from you and only in class.

Do you have those short training tabs you can put on the collar so it's easy to grab and keep on your dog but not as in the way as a regular long leash?

Think I'd really work more on managing the situation and coming up with smart ways to better handle your dog. Sound like you are doing SUCH a great job with the joy for the sport and motivation... so hate to see that get affected with corrections for 'bad' rather than the pup trying to think and earn the rewards for being 'good'.

You using a clicker? May want to take it out and use it frequently for awhile to get your pup back involved in learning and focused on you.

If you respect your instructor and how their dogs are behaving, definitely ask for their suggestions. You may feel embarrassed or think you are wasting everyones time, but it may not be nearly as bad as you think. Plus there may be things you can do, or ways the class can be structured, so everyone can all work on their own issues at the same time.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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If you respect your instructor and how their dogs are behaving, definitely ask for their suggestions. You may feel embarrassed or think you are wasting everyones time, but it may not be nearly as bad as you think.
I agree with this. I ask countless questions at class. Very few of my classmates (with any of the three instructors I've had now) have asked questions. I don't consider it wasting time at all. In fact, I don't really understand how they don't have questions or don't ask them. You should always be able to ask your instructor questions!
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