Training Collars.....

LuvourGSDs · 10-22-2011, 04:43 PM

Why is it only choke allowed in AKC, errr I don't get that & they feel that is more humane than a GL or Prong??? I'm talking about general leading around a show, not for in the ring. What is the big deal??? A flat on some dogs are even like a choke! I had Skyrah pup at this wkends show & got told by a judge no halti's allowed.

I was only walking pup around & took her with me to ck Sable in. I like a controled dog, sorry & makes me mad they do not allow to have.

Are all venues this way? First time anyone has said anything to me at a show & been using the GL on Skyrah since a baby at shows.

LuvourGSDs · 10-22-2011, 04:45 PM

BTW, seen easy walk harnesses being used, same tool as halti's imo.

selzer · 10-22-2011, 05:15 PM

Head collars, e-collars and prong collars are not allowed. It is in the rules. At least I know the prong is. If you do not like the rules, than you need to contact your AKC delegate and let your feelings be known.

Personally, I think the rule is because of the impression halti's and prong collars give to the general public. The AKC likes people to get the impression of pretty, well-trained pure-bred dogs. That is why they don't want the mutts at conformation shows. So I think if you are having a conformation show, you cannot allow the CAR dogs to compete in other events.

I think they do not like the idea of dogs being subdued by evil-looking prongs that dig into their neck. You and I might know how they work but John Q Public does not. And lots of people think they are nasty torture devices. So the AKC does not want them at their shows, not even on companion dogs.

I agree with them stopping you. If there is a rule, they should enforce it. Too many times they do not enforce rules at AKC shows. In general, dogs that are not entered at the show should not be brought, and dogs who are entered should not require training collars. At matches it is a whole other story. Rules are relaxed, puppies are welcome, dogs that are not entered are welcome.

The reason for this is that it costs a whole lot more to enter a point show. The crating space should be for paying customers (dogs that are entered) and the general congestion, the possibility of dogs behaving poorly should be limited by the fact that only dogs that are entered and should be accustomed to dogs and people and the show atmosphere are there.

So there really shouldn't be dogs in halti's or prong collars there. Choke chains or slip leads have been normal show attire since forever. It is a little safer than a flat collar (prevents slipping the collar) and does not detract from the dog as much. A correction with a choke chain can NQ you from an obedience or rally run, and I do not think it would be enough for them to bring you up on charges from the AKC, I think that has to be pretty serious abuse for mistreating the dog. But you can have sanctions brought up against you for mistreating a dog, or other types of unsportsmanlike behavior, like attacking people.

I think that they want to present the whole dog-show-deal as some type of gentleman's sport. So they will penalize behavior that is unbecoming or detrimental to the image of the AKC.

selzer · 10-22-2011, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuvourGSDs

BTW, seen easy walk harnesses being used, same tool as halti's imo.

But not as it is perceived. Some dogs are wearing a harness because they have throat problems -- knew a leonberger that needed one. The head collar is perceived kind of somewhere between a horse halter and a muzzle.

Shaina · 10-22-2011, 05:21 PM

This is from my Canine Good Citizen Evaluator handbook -

Quote:

Collar, Leashes and Equipment
All tests must be performed on leash. Dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars (including martingales) made of leather, fabric, or chain. They may also wear body harnesses for the CGC test. Body harnesses should not restrict the movement of the dog. Special training equipment such as pinch collars and head collars are not permitted. The leash should be made of either leather or fabric. Retractable leashes may not be used in the CGC test. The evaluator should have available a 20-ft. line for Test #6.
We recognize that special training collars may be valuable equipment in the beginning stages of dog training, however, we feel that dogs are ready to be tested after they have been transitioned to a slip or buckle collar (body harnesses are also acceptable). If an evaluator is teaching classes and does not feel comfortable with one of the permitted collars, students may be required to take the test in the type of collar used in class. If the CGC test is advertised for the general public, all of the permitted collar types and body harnesses should be allowed in the test.

Edit:

Also - in the ring, you aren't CORRECTING the dog, right? A head halter is essentially correcting the dog any time you are on a short leash, where as a chain is not. I think that is also a main difference.

LuvourGSDs · 10-22-2011, 05:30 PM

Sue, I see whatcha mean. Many bring new up coming pups. I just see dogs pulling & I just like control, esp with a GSD. You get looks at times just because of the breed.

See people using them retractable type leads & this drives me nuts to.

I just feel the easy walk harness is same type of tool as GL halti.

I know a dog going to shows should have good lead manners & should not need a training tool, but some still need it to a degree & the good old choke as been bashed way more than any tool out there, but they allow it to be used. :-(

selzer · 10-22-2011, 05:36 PM

Actually, dogs in the conformation ring often are not trained to have wonderful leash manners. They want them to pull out. I think they should train them to pull on command. But they do not want the dogs to sit at all, and they do not mind the pulling.

They should ban retractable leashes though, just as a statement for responsible dog ownership.

Bringing up and coming dogs to show, should only be done if it there is no statement in the premium list about unentered dogs. And even then, you can get all kinds of yuck at a dog show. I would probably leave any unentered dogs home just for that reason alone. Dog show crud -- no fun at all.

LuvourGSDs · 10-22-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaina

This is from my Canine Good Citizen Evaluator handbook -

Edit:

Also - in the ring, you aren't CORRECTING the dog, right? A head halter is essentially correcting the dog any time you are on a short leash, where as a chain is not. I think that is also a main difference.

Ok, thanks for sharing, I will contine to train on my leather choke or martingale for now on. Just thought GL would be more humane use than chokes.

LuvourGSDs · 10-22-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by selzer

Actually, dogs in the conformation ring often are not trained to have wonderful leash manners. They want them to pull out. I think they should train them to pull on command. But they do not want the dogs to sit at all, and they do not mind the pulling.

They should ban retractable leashes though, just as a statement for responsible dog ownership.

Bringing up and coming dogs to show, should only be done if it there is no statement in the premium list about unentered dogs. And even then, you can get all kinds of yuck at a dog show. I would probably leave any unentered dogs home just for that reason alone. Dog show crud -- no fun at all.

Yea, not trying to start anything by bringing the pup.

Just see others do & felt if she was going to do this someday, best to get a feel for trials & behaving there early. I know AKC is all I have here local, do enjoy, but not as relaxed to a degree. This is for fun for me & my fukids, not out for blood to get titles. :-(

AgileGSD · 10-22-2011, 06:19 PM

I'm pretty sure that the rule is due to the impression prong collars and GLs leave on the general public. Prong collars look cruel to much of the general public and GLs look like muzzles. I can understand their position based on this.

I take usually take pups with me to shows but yeah, most AKC shows state that no unentered dogs are allowed. There are a few shows that this is strictly enforced and your unentered dog will not be allowed in. Most though, I think it's only enforced if the dog is causing a problem. As for the perceived risk of taking a puppy to a dog show, if you're worried about "dog show crud" you should keep all of the dogs at home. Once one dog gets it, the rest of the dogs in the house will be exposed too.

10-22-2011, 04:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
LuvourGSDs Crowned Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: OH Posts: 5,578	Training Collars..... Why is it only choke allowed in AKC, errr I don't get that & they feel that is more humane than a GL or Prong??? I'm talking about general leading around a show, not for in the ring. What is the big deal??? A flat on some dogs are even like a choke! I had Skyrah pup at this wkends show & got told by a judge no halti's allowed. I was only walking pup around & took her with me to ck Sable in. I like a controled dog, sorry & makes me mad they do not allow to have. Are all venues this way? First time anyone has said anything to me at a show & been using the GL on Skyrah since a baby at shows. __________________ ~Jen~ Sable~ GSD 7 yrs. NJP, OJP, NAP, NAJ, NA, TN-N, NAC, NJC, CGC Shadow~ BGSD Adopted 6 yrs. RN, CGC Storm~ GSD 5 yrs. RA, TN-N, CGC Skyrah~ GSD Fun Sable Puppy "Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his tail."

10-22-2011, 04:45 PM	#2 (permalink)
LuvourGSDs Crowned Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: OH Posts: 5,578	BTW, seen easy walk harnesses being used, same tool as halti's imo. __________________ ~Jen~ Sable~ GSD 7 yrs. NJP, OJP, NAP, NAJ, NA, TN-N, NAC, NJC, CGC Shadow~ BGSD Adopted 6 yrs. RN, CGC Storm~ GSD 5 yrs. RA, TN-N, CGC Skyrah~ GSD Fun Sable Puppy "Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his tail."

10-22-2011, 05:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
selzer Crowned Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Denmark, Ohio Posts: 17,498	Head collars, e-collars and prong collars are not allowed. It is in the rules. At least I know the prong is. If you do not like the rules, than you need to contact your AKC delegate and let your feelings be known. Personally, I think the rule is because of the impression halti's and prong collars give to the general public. The AKC likes people to get the impression of pretty, well-trained pure-bred dogs. That is why they don't want the mutts at conformation shows. So I think if you are having a conformation show, you cannot allow the CAR dogs to compete in other events. I think they do not like the idea of dogs being subdued by evil-looking prongs that dig into their neck. You and I might know how they work but John Q Public does not. And lots of people think they are nasty torture devices. So the AKC does not want them at their shows, not even on companion dogs. I agree with them stopping you. If there is a rule, they should enforce it. Too many times they do not enforce rules at AKC shows. In general, dogs that are not entered at the show should not be brought, and dogs who are entered should not require training collars. At matches it is a whole other story. Rules are relaxed, puppies are welcome, dogs that are not entered are welcome. The reason for this is that it costs a whole lot more to enter a point show. The crating space should be for paying customers (dogs that are entered) and the general congestion, the possibility of dogs behaving poorly should be limited by the fact that only dogs that are entered and should be accustomed to dogs and people and the show atmosphere are there. So there really shouldn't be dogs in halti's or prong collars there. Choke chains or slip leads have been normal show attire since forever. It is a little safer than a flat collar (prevents slipping the collar) and does not detract from the dog as much. A correction with a choke chain can NQ you from an obedience or rally run, and I do not think it would be enough for them to bring you up on charges from the AKC, I think that has to be pretty serious abuse for mistreating the dog. But you can have sanctions brought up against you for mistreating a dog, or other types of unsportsmanlike behavior, like attacking people. I think that they want to present the whole dog-show-deal as some type of gentleman's sport. So they will penalize behavior that is unbecoming or detrimental to the image of the AKC. __________________ RIP Arwen, CD RN CGC RIP Whitney, RN CGC Jenna, RN CGC Babs, CD RA CGC Herding Instinct Certificate Heidi, RA CGC Tori, RN CGC SG3 Odessa, SchH1, Kkl1, AD Ninja, RN CGC Milla, RN CGC Joy, Star Puppy, RN CGC Dolly & Bear

10-22-2011, 05:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
LuvourGSDs Crowned Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: OH Posts: 5,578	Sue, I see whatcha mean. Many bring new up coming pups. I just see dogs pulling & I just like control, esp with a GSD. You get looks at times just because of the breed. See people using them retractable type leads & this drives me nuts to. I just feel the easy walk harness is same type of tool as GL halti. I know a dog going to shows should have good lead manners & should not need a training tool, but some still need it to a degree & the good old choke as been bashed way more than any tool out there, but they allow it to be used. :-( __________________ ~Jen~ Sable~ GSD 7 yrs. NJP, OJP, NAP, NAJ, NA, TN-N, NAC, NJC, CGC Shadow~ BGSD Adopted 6 yrs. RN, CGC Storm~ GSD 5 yrs. RA, TN-N, CGC Skyrah~ GSD Fun Sable Puppy "Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his tail." Last edited by LuvourGSDs; 10-22-2011 at 05:33 PM.

10-22-2011, 05:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
selzer Crowned Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Denmark, Ohio Posts: 17,498	Actually, dogs in the conformation ring often are not trained to have wonderful leash manners. They want them to pull out. I think they should train them to pull on command. But they do not want the dogs to sit at all, and they do not mind the pulling. They should ban retractable leashes though, just as a statement for responsible dog ownership. Bringing up and coming dogs to show, should only be done if it there is no statement in the premium list about unentered dogs. And even then, you can get all kinds of yuck at a dog show. I would probably leave any unentered dogs home just for that reason alone. Dog show crud -- no fun at all. __________________ RIP Arwen, CD RN CGC RIP Whitney, RN CGC Jenna, RN CGC Babs, CD RA CGC Herding Instinct Certificate Heidi, RA CGC Tori, RN CGC SG3 Odessa, SchH1, Kkl1, AD Ninja, RN CGC Milla, RN CGC Joy, Star Puppy, RN CGC Dolly & Bear

10-22-2011, 06:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
AgileGSD Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,645	I'm pretty sure that the rule is due to the impression prong collars and GLs leave on the general public. Prong collars look cruel to much of the general public and GLs look like muzzles. I can understand their position based on this. I take usually take pups with me to shows but yeah, most AKC shows state that no unentered dogs are allowed. There are a few shows that this is strictly enforced and your unentered dog will not be allowed in. Most though, I think it's only enforced if the dog is causing a problem. As for the perceived risk of taking a puppy to a dog show, if you're worried about "dog show crud" you should keep all of the dogs at home. Once one dog gets it, the rest of the dogs in the house will be exposed too.

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