Running dogwalk anyone?

[wildo]

Yep- I really am that inconsistent. I just can't make up my mind between running, stopped, or mixed contacts. On one hand- I've never liked the idea of stopped contacts in a motion-based sport and even to this day, I think that if a GSD is to be competitive against other breeds in its class, then stopped contacts are not the way to go. On the other hand, there is little question that 2o2o (or any other stopped contact performance) offers the most control and more distance work potential (like "flips" into tunnels for example).

I'm beginning to think that if you can't get your dog to literally drive as fast as possible to the contact zone and then stop, then you can't expect competitive times. When you see the dogs sprinting across the dogwalk but then slowing down to practically a crawl on the down side just to get into position- what's the point? Rachel Sanders in her Reliable Running A-Frame DVD states that when most handlers get into this situation, they don't even take the time to let the dog get into the 2o2o position before releasing them since they know they are losing time.

I found this article about running dogwalks that I thought was quite thought provoking: A Good Reason to Retrain to a Running Contact? | Running-Contacts.Com

Check out the comparison video here:

running contacts compilation - YouTube

running contacts compilation - YouTube

[BlackPuppy]

I like the running contact. My dogs do it easily, and they rarely miss the contact. I would have said never missed a contact, but I think there were a couple of times.

My dog club insists that the dogs must learn 2o2o, so I don't take their classes. I do most of my training alone. So far, it has worked with three dogs.

I also don't like the way teeter is trained, but that's for another day.

[I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO]

We use a running dogwalk- sort of. In class, he is to stop at the end (4on) until released. In a trial I release him so quickly, he doesn't actually stop. At first, I trained it as a running contact, but he was so inconsistent at a trial that I retrained him to stop and be released. This is reinforced in practice but he never actually has to stop at a trial.
But, wow, after watching that video, I think I might change a few things. Though, the release is quick at a trial, I slow him down on the dogwalk to insure he gets both the up and down contact (they call both in USDAA). After watching videos from our trial this weekend, I thought I wanted to speed it up. I am going to work on it.

Thanks for sharing!

[MaggieRoseLee]

I'd rather lose a sec or so on the course with a 2on/2off, than lose an entire run from a flyoff.

Also have to mention that many AKC courses have an 'off course' directly in front of a contact obstacle so you not only have to manage your running contact but whatever the training is so your dog takes a hard left/right as they come off the yellow. Cause if they go straight ahead, at speed so you can't catch up, they'll be off and into/over the off course in a flash.

[MaggieRoseLee]

Originally Posted by BlackPuppy

My dog club insists that the dogs must learn 2o2o, so I don't take their classes. I do most of my training alone. So far, it has worked with three dogs.

That's too bad, the best intructors/classes are more flexible and should be willing to work with you. Specially if you prove you are really training something with a method that is working.

There ARE people with excellent running contacts, but it takes WAY more repetitive training then I am able to do. And the method used must be well understood by the trainer AND the dog so they really do ALWAYS run thru the yellow. Not just happen to step into it most (some?) of the time on the way down.

[I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO]

Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee

Also have to mention that many AKC courses have an 'off course' directly in front of a contact obstacle so you not only have to manage your running contact but whatever the training is so your dog takes a hard left/right as they come off the yellow. Cause if they go straight ahead, at speed so you can't catch up, they'll be off and into/over the off course in a flash.

NADAC is notorious for that too, especially having the dogwalk with an off course jump in front of it heading towards the start/finish line so the dogs think they're done. But, if you train it right, having a running contact doesn't have to mean "keep running straight ahead." That's one reason I train 4on with a release before a stop in the trial, but I really want to start letting him charge the dogwalk more.

[gsdmom1]

I stand by my 2o2o philosophy! A running dog walk IS VERY HARD and if you watch the dog in the video he is not driving to the bottom when she starts running it, he is moderate speed. YOU DO NOT NEED RUNNING CONTACTS TO BE COMPETITIVE. The dog that won the worlds last years DOES NOT HAVE RUNNING CONTACTS. Dogs begin to creep when handlers "muddy up the water". I did it. I am guilty. Let me put it to you the way I learned....
everytime you say sit and the dog's butt hits the floor they get a cookie. They do not get something for a half sit or a down, only a sit so...your dog will start to offer it as soon as they hear the cookie jar open, it is BLACK and WHITE to them. If you start rewarding them half sitting or downing when you say sit, you "muddy up the water". They were rewarded for so many different positions that it is now grey to them. This is what happens with contacts. we get to competition and nerves take over so we release early or we do not correct the dog for not doing the exact performance we trained. so....it is now grey. Watch these two videos....

Tang excellent Std in Maryland January 2008, 1st ex a leg! - YouTube

Tang excellent Std in Maryland January 2008, 1st ex a leg! - YouTube

notice how she drives to the bottome of the aframe and stops. I then release into tunnel.

Tang Excellent Std spring 09 - YouTube

Tang Excellent Std spring 09 - YouTube

18 mos later, letting her contacts go has resulted in this....she actually corrects herself because I stop and mark the behavior.

Running contacts are extremely hard to get. TRUE running. Think very hard befre attempting them. if your dog runs down but slightly jumps at the bottom, it is wrong, even if they are in the yellow. they have to stride completly and for a big shepherd, their natural stride might be over it.

[I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO]

Love Tang's speed and drive!!

18 mos later, letting her contacts go has resulted in this....she actually corrects herself because I stop and mark the behavior.

Question, is she correcting herself or does she think the behavior is now- run off the contact and back up?

[MaggieRoseLee]

Originally Posted by I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Love Tang's speed and drive!!



Question, is she correcting herself or does she think the behavior is now- run off the contact and back up?

I have had Bretta do the same thing when I stand there and don't move after she fails in her 2on/2off. The mere fact I am NOT moving and she doesn't get to reward HERSELF by us both running on is the actual 'correction'. It's marked by me NOT moving on and giving some kind of 'I'm very disappointed in you' comment.

Sure Marisa will chime in with her thoughts though.

[I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO]

Here are two recent videos. The first is how we train in class (sorry for the really poor video quality) the second is at a trial (just an FYI-this was a USDAA DAM tournament run- which means if you off course you get an E and it's really bad for your team- you can see I baby him up to the weaves and incur a refusal (2 pts I think in DAM- instead of an E) because so many dogs were taking the jump out there.)