Rear crosses in dog agility - timing and placement (what the heck is a lead change?)

[MaggieRoseLee]

So I put together this little video to explain a bit about lead changes and rear crosses. As usual, feel free to comment and explain why the method may be different where you go to classes.

‪Rear crosses in dog agility - timing and placement (what the heck is a lead change?)‬‏ - YouTube

‪Rear crosses in dog agility - timing and placement (what the heck is a lead change?)‬‏ - YouTube

[DJEtzel]

I can't imagine some places teach you to cross in front of a jump like that, do they??

Frag and I just started agility about 6 weeks ago, so I'm still new to it all. We don't have a word for him to know a rear cross is coming, but I do a gradual hand motion from my left hand if he's on my left to my right coming over him as he's committed to the jump so that he knows to meet me on the left of the jump, etc. We're still working more on sendouts so that he will get far enough away from me to commit to a jump and leave me room to move behind him though!

I liked the video, regardless!

[wildo]

How does one learn more about this "lead change" thing without finding a bunch of information about leashes. I'm not sure I'm buying that a dog naturally will turn into you ALWAYS. Pimg is very handed in that she will turn counter clockwise all day long (on a perch, for example) but I have to work hard to get her to even consider turning clockwise. I think that if we did the "step 2" drill in your video from the right side, she'd get the rear cross on the flat without turning into me. If we did it on the left side, she'd almost certainly turn into me. I am not sure if this has anything to do with her "lead" but more so her nature ability to turn better (and more comfortably) in one direction over the other.

So how do I research the validity of this "lead" stuff?

[TaraM1285]

There's an explanation of the Lead Leg on the agilitynerd site:

AgilityNerd : Lead Leg

[Jax08]

LOL You started talking about lead legs yesterday and i thought that it couldn't possibly be the same as horses! It's really simple! If you go in a circle, the inside leg that is out further. It's a natural thing for any animal, including us, for balance. If the dog was forced to change leads to late then his balance would be off while going over an obstacle.

With horses, according to my DD, you slow the horse down to give them two steps to adjust their stride while putting pressure on him from the opposite leg. If he were going over a jump and was on the wrong lead then he could trip or fall. She's giving him a cue from his back. I'm sure it can't be hard to teach a cue to a dog from the ground.

[MaggieRoseLee]

Originally Posted by Jax08

LOL You started talking about lead legs yesterday and i thought that it couldn't possibly be the same as horses! It's really simple! If you go in a circle, the inside leg that is out further. It's a natural thing for any animal, including us, for balance. If the dog was forced to change leads to late then his balance would be off while going over an obstacle.

With horses, according to my DD, you slow the horse down to give them two steps to adjust their stride while putting pressure on him from the opposite leg. If he were going over a jump and was on the wrong lead then he could trip or fall. She's giving him a cue from his back. I'm sure it can't be hard to teach a cue to a dog from the ground.

Exactly. Horse people 'get it' when talking about leads. A long time ago they figured it out cause if a horse is on the wrong lead and you ask it to do something the tripping and falling and INJURIES that can occur to the rider on it's back made it very very very important. When 'horse' people started doing agility,they quickly saw the advantages of that knowledge while the rest of us are 'what'?

Fact is, the dogs figure out that mostly we humans take the shorter path, which take the dogs around us (like we would be in the center of a pinwheel, not running the outside). This put them pretty much always on the lead that will turn them into you.

I see it all the time at class and at trials when we are late or confusing our dogs. Some dogs will try to lead change in mid air (bar down). But alot of them will either spin before or after something to adjust their lead. So we stand there thinking (some people just get mad) why didn't they just GO and what the heck made them spin. When the reality is the dog is spinning to adjust it's lead.

I personally can't watch well enough when I'm tearing thru a course to SEE 'right' lead or 'left' lead. And I don't have to. If I just remember they are on the lead to come to a turn around me (me in the center and they pull towards me) then if there is a change of direction on a course and I need to be on the OTHER side of them............. that's why I need to put in some type of cross that will change their lead.

Originally Posted by TaraM1285

There's an explanation of the Lead Leg on the agilitynerd site:

AgilityNerd : Lead Leg

Thanks for finding that!

[MaggieRoseLee]

Here's a video to show the spinning, (HEY WILDO, look at the tire ) . For the spinning, look what happens after the teeter. Where does the handler want to go and is she on the right side to pre-cue the dog and get it on the right lead?

‪Swamp Dog Agility Trial - Luna Novice STD‬‏ - YouTube

‪Swamp Dog Agility Trial - Luna Novice STD‬‏ - YouTube

You can see how she's trying to 'push' her dog into the tunnel, but what way is the dog looking and what way does the dog spin? Into her (towards her). If she'd have either reared the teeter (or fronted) or even fronted on the down contact of the teeter the spin wouldn't have happened. Crosses not only change the dogs lead, THEY GIVE THE DOG INFORMATION ON THE DIRECTION OF THE COURSE. If we cross at the wrong place, or not at all, we give them zero information.

Same handler/same course did a perfect front cross after the aframe and look how well the dog did.

And for those that are good at seeing the lead leg thing, after the weaves the handler does a weird push to the left to get the dog into the final line of jumps. Cause it's a Novice course and their is room, with a smart sheltie the dog figures it out and changes their lead about midway to flip around to take the jump.

Watch this run: look where the handler is at the table and then see where the course goes to the weaves. Can you see why the weaves became a problem? With the curve of the course, where should she have been?

You Tube

You Tube

[wildo]

Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee

Here's a video to show the spinning, (HEY WILDO, look at the tire ) .

Dang it. I already rebuilt mine with no supports!!

[wildo]

Ok, now this is really awesome. After reading through the AgilityNerd page (especially- that was a crazy good explanation) and after watching the videos MRL posted, I think I get it. And I can see how you might not "need to see what lead" they are on in order to position yourself to better the turn. The spin at the teeter solidified this for me. You can't see the dog's feet, but we can assume the lady crossed with the dog on the wrong lead.

What I disagree with is not needing to be able to see the lead foot. There will not always be times (I assume) where you can ensure you are on the proper side. It might just not be possible and you will need to cross on the flat in between two obstacles. MRL, you pointed out in the first video how she got lucky with a "smart sheltie" after the weave poles. While she may have gotten lucky, we can clearly see that luck had little to do with the dog's ability to turn. Check out this sequence:

1) Exiting the weave poles, both human and dog are on their right lead:


2) The human signals a turn the VERY INSTANT the dog hits its left lead (as well as the human! Left foot down!):


3) And because the cross on the flat was performed on the proper lead, the turn can take place without a spin:


So this is incredibly interesting to me. And I can totally buy that you need to be aware of this lead change thing to determine the best route through the course. But I also think it would be wise to practice spotting when the dog has a specific foot down so that a lead change can occur wherever you need it to.

As to the weave pole entry in the second video, I am not sure that was a lead change issue. To me it just looked like a dog that isn't rock solid on what the "weave pole obstacle" expectations are. Neither handler nor dog actually changed directions, so there was no lead change.

[Tbarrios333]

Awesome information in this thread!