Why 2on/2off? Why not running contact?

[wildo]

I just don't really get it. I can see the point that the 2on/2off guarantees proper contact, but it seems so slow if the dog has to actually pause for a second. Since agility competitions are run by specific associations with set equipment dimensions- why not train the running contact? It's not like the equipment size would affect the dog's contact... What gives here?


EDIT- Or maybe the dog doesn't actually have to pause on a 2on/2off contact? If not- then how does it differ from a running contact?

[MaggieRoseLee]

For me, to properly train the running contact just takes WAY more repetitions and training then I'm able to get in with my dogs.

Plus my dogs love to go go go and one stride or moment of uber excitement can easily lead to a missed contact and blowing an otherwise clean run.

Many of the top trainers with world champion dogs use a 2on/2off. But you wouldn't know it if you watched their run. Because when they get good, they start putting in a 2on/2off with a quick release. Meaning the millisec the dog is 'in the position' the handler releases so you can't even see the pause.

The other reason I like it is because there are alot of courses being set up now that have off course obstacles directly in front of a contact obstacle. So it the course is fast and you are behind, it's very difficult to keep our dogs away from the off course.

Susan Garrett is one of the top trainers and she has the time to train both for her dogs. Here's info on why she wants both The Fix in on for Feature | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

A Critical Key To Training the Running Contact? Susan Garrett’s Dog Training Blog

[JakodaCD OA]

when I was training, I trained for both running and 2on2off because both are good tools to have depending on what you need to run a specific course , hopefully, successfully

With my aussie, I used a more 2on2off because she was tempted to 'bail' alot on the aframe, she also wasn't a real speed demon, and could lose focus fast, so this worked for her..With my previous shepherd, I usually did running contacts, she had a much longer stride, and was much more solid on her contacts.

I think whatever way (or both) which works well for your dog FIRST< and you second, is the way to go

[Xeph]

I started with 2o/2o with my male and we moved to running contacts (against advice save for ONE person who saw what I saw). Why? My dog was wrenching his back. What I initially thought was blatant disobedience turned out to be my dog telling me he COULDN'T stop comfortably or safely, so we took a new approach to his contacts.

[JakodaCD OA]

that aframe is a good obstacle to get toe jam/shoulder jam on especially for the bigger longer striding dogs , it's why I try to stick with running contacts on that obstacle..

[wildo]

Thanks for all the replies. I learned I will need to look into stride length (especially in the A Frame) and see if pausing could cause shoulder/back issues for Pimg. I also didn't know that you they didn't have to pause for a 2one/2off release. So that's something to think about as well... Good info- thanks!

[MaggieRoseLee]

Originally Posted by wildo

Thanks for all the replies. I learned I will need to look into stride length (especially in the A Frame) and see if pausing could cause shoulder/back issues for Pimg. I also didn't know that you they didn't have to pause for a 2one/2off release. So that's something to think about as well... Good info- thanks!

This is another reason to find the best instructor/classes you can find. A good instructor will be able to work thru this. Finding a safe 2on/2off that your dog can be taught that won't injure it. And/or finding a reliable way to teach a running contact that will hold up at a trial.

[wildo]

Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee

This is another reason to find the best instructor/classes you can find. A good instructor will be able to work thru this. Finding a safe 2on/2off that your dog can be taught that won't injure it. And/or finding a reliable way to teach a running contact that will hold up at a trial.

That's a whole other topic on it's own, but I get your point. I actually walked out (not permanently, probably) on my trainer in yesterday's agility session. She seemed shocked that I left. It's a 55 x55' room (3000 sq ft) with a full agility setup scrunched in- a 30' tunnel, 3' high dog walk, full size teeter, half sized a-frame, numerous jumps and pause tables, two full sets of weave poles, and two tire jumps. People filter in over the 3 hour course of the class starting with about 10 people, and ending at nearly 30 or so. We have never worked on foundation training, and yesterday I talked to the trainer for all of 30 secs while she watched Pimg jump a 6" high piece of pvc siding. The rest of the 45mins I spent there I was pretty much on my own. It's funny how when you become aware of something like professional dog training (especially when you had a mindset of its uselessness) you can really be pulled into something like that. "Wow- look at all this equipment!" or "Wow- look at all these participants; they must be awesome trainers!" And there is no question that my dog has learned a good deal of obedience using their positive punishment (pinch collar, leash jerks, etc...) methods. But now that I get into this stuff more and more, I realize this trainer is not the place for us. Really sucks since I just gave them $275 for a year membership in "advanced" (ha!) obedience and agility. Pffft... I just learned that there isn't even a single trainer here that even competes in agility! Don't get me wrong- I don't think you have to compete in order to know how to train something- but come on- we all know it helps! Maybe we'd be learning foundations if anyone here actually knew what they were doing.

So yeah- I can relate to your statement on needing to find a good trainer. There is a pretty awesome looking facility on the opposite side of Indy as me where they have both an indoor (10000 sq ft) area and outdoor area. All six of their trainers actually compete in either agility or obedience, and class sizes are limited. I'm going to check into them in the new year... Here is a link to the new facility I am going to check out:
Pawsitive Partners Dog Training Center

Anyway- sorry for going off topic, but it is my thread... haha! Yes- I am in total agreeance. A good trainer seems to be imperative!

[Liesje]

I like the 2o2o because it gives us some advantages: If I need to catch up, my dog will pause until released. If the course is challenging, again it gives us both a second to "gather" ourselves before moving on to the next correct obstacle. The process of teaching this style has helped with my dog's rear end awareness. You don't HAVE to actually pause, you can have the dog stop for as long or as little as you want (if my dog has already made the contact, and I'm in a good position for handling the next obstacles, I give my release word there and keep him moving).

I do get the hesitation b/c of jamming the dog. Fortunately, that has not been much of a concern for us since we train on a A-frame that is very "open" and a dog walk that is only half height so our angles are a lot different for training. I've only trialed one weekend and my dog only trained formally for 6 weeks so he is not ready for AKC, but my assumption is that we would train enough on the "safe" equipment where when moving to the full size stuff and the tighter angels, the dog has already mastered the contacts and I can release him without him having to actually jam himself to a stop. My dog actually does a running contact very naturally but I persist with the 2o2o in training and then if he does a running contact in trial or running a mock course, so be it. We are not training to be competitive, just to enrich his training in general and have fun.

[MaggieRoseLee]

Originally Posted by wildo

So yeah- I can relate to your statement on needing to find a good trainer. There is a pretty awesome looking facility on the opposite side of Indy as me where they have both an indoor (10000 sq ft) area and outdoor area. All six of their trainers actually compete in either agility or obedience, and class sizes are limited. I'm going to check into them in the new year... Here is a link to the new facility I am going to check out:
Pawsitive Partners Dog Training Center

Anyway- sorry for going off topic, but it is my thread... haha! Yes- I am in total agreeance. A good trainer seems to be imperative!

That place looks ideal! You have to have smaller classes in agility so you get some one on one. Plus you learn when the other dog/handlers are doing their thing and listening/watching what they are doing right or need to work on. Only a small part of agility is about the dog learning to perform all the individual obstacles properly. The part that's the hardest and we continue with classes FOREVER on is the HANDLING! Which is all about us getting the dogs thru the spaces BETWEEN the obstacles in the correct, fastest, clearest, smoothest way possible for a beautiful clean run.

I know for my big dogs, just training in a smaller place like you were, is NOT condusive to proper training for a big dog. Cramming all the equipment into half the space doesn't do anything but teach your dog to run slow and YOU to run a slow dog!

I have to drive over an hour for my current training facility and that's just the way it has to be. Best instructors and best equipment at best year round facility is the one I'm at, so there I will stay. Try to work in shopping in the same direction, or meet other classmates so we can meet even earlier for dinner....

Even if you never intend to trial, instructors who do go to shows tend to keep their dogs healthier and learn the best/newest methods for their dogs.... and that gets passed on to your dogs. They will know about other clinics or seminars or methods that can only help make everything more fun and better for your agility team.