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A second bite and I'm terrified!

19K views 140 replies 60 participants last post by  scannergirl 
#1 ·
I'm terrified and sick to my stomach that I may lose Thor.

He's bitten the same guy he bit a few months back. AC was automatically called (I understand the need for this so am not complaining about it) and they will be back Thursday to discuss what must be done....either another 10 days of automatic quarantine or the worse possible scenario, they will take him. As this particular attack (and yes, let's call it what it was...an ATTACK) was unprovoked, I fear it will be the latter. I keep bursting into tears as I can't bear the thought.

I had both Freya and Thor out for their walks, both on leashes. I wanted to work on them being off-leash and coming when I called. I let Freya off first and let her romp, calling her two or three times to return to me. She was figuring it out nicely, so I leashed her again and released Thor. Same thing...he romped around but returned to me the first time I called him. I let him go again and he ran off down the road....then stopped! His ears pricked up, his hackles rose. I could see this even though I was a quarter of a block away. I called him, my eyes searching for what caught his interest. I know there is a pack of feral cats that live in the area and thought he might have seen one of them, though his hackles don't lift for them usually, just his interest is piqued. But Thor didn't come, nor did he move....he just stood there.

Then I saw George coming down his steps. I watched as Thor tensed and called to George to 'get back in the house'. Unfortunately, I was too far away for him to hear me. I called Thor again, but he just stood. You have to know I was racing towards him by this time, dragging Freya along, as I knew...I KNEW...what was going to happen. Thor, ever since the first time he bit George for what he perceived as a threat to me, has hated George. Even walking past his house, Thor glances at it, his ears up, his hackles often up as well, even though no one is around.

Sure enough, George reached his driveway and Thor took off, circling George and lunging at his legs. George started squealing and screaming and hitting out at Thor with a bag he had in his hand. I told him "Just stand still, George, don't move" but let's face it, even if he had heard me, it would have been hard to stand still when a 100 lb. shepherd is nipping at your legs. I called Thor again, told him "Leave it! Come!" and he started back towards me. George turned towards the house but half way back to me, Thor turned and ran back again. Fortunately, George had gotten to a safe place under the house and with a few barks, Thor finally listened to me and came back. I leashed him at once and wondered ' what do I say to him? how do I correct his behavior? will he even understand what I'm telling him if I say bad dog or no biting or anything?'

Besides, I was shaking so badly I could only be grateful that I had him leashed by that time. I finally reached George's house and as he was climbing the stairs to the door, I called, "Are you okay?" When he said, "Thor bit me again and ripped my pants" I blanched. I am surprised my legs held me up. He pulled up his pant leg and blood was dripping down. Deja vu!

I took both dogs home, got in my truck, drove back to George's and piled him in to take him to the doctor's....again. Fortunately, this time it was just some scratches and one small puncture so they cleaned him up, put on some antibiotic salve, gave him a prescription for antibiotics and I took him to the pharmacy and then home. Naturally, they called AC and the vet to check up on Thor's shots. I will pay for the prescriptions and whatever his medicare doesn't cover, plus a new pair of pants and socks, but that does not solve the problem.

The doctor tried to make me feel better with a little joking comment; i.e. "You have to keep these two out of the same playground." I know he was trying to make me feel better but I don't.

Thor doesn't bite anyone else. I've had strange men all over the house during the replacement of my heating system, Kat (my daughter) has friends in and out of the house all the time, we meet other neighbors all the time when out for walks, but Thor only goes for George. I don't know what to do and I'm sooooooo frightened that AC will see him as a vicious dog and want to put him down. Just typing those words make tears gush. He's NOT vicious! Dang, Seamus attacked him and he REACTED, he was not PROACTIVE in that event.

What's wrong with Thor? What do I tell the AC when they get here? I don't want them to take him but I fear they will. Even the problems with Seamus dim compared to this dilemma.
 
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#102 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Diane,

I just read your other thread on Seamus. While he may not be "the" dog for you, you've only had him 2 months, right? IMHO -- he has made tremendous positive strides forward in those two months. You're obviously doing something right with him and he's responding.

You may not see the progress because you're living in the trenches, but the dog you're describing today sounds nothing like the dog you were describing in January. Good job!

Thor and Seamus may never be able to peaceably co-habit, but that doesn't mean that you haven't done right by them. Good luck with the training!
 
#103 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Thanks for clarifying. I do not have enough experience to even comment on adopting from the urgent section. I did arrange a few adoptions, but those dogs ended up with rescue groups, after having been treated by my vet.

I do know the rescue group I am working with has been very helpful, but every now and then I see a dog in the urgent section, and rather then let it be killed, would like to give the dog another shot at life.
 
#104 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

I took Thor up the beach (along with Seamus who went to the vet's) to the trainer's to board for ten days. And what a day to do so. Wind was blowing so hard it blew the sound water over the only road to home so it took me six hours to take what is usually an hour's drive home. Troopers closed off the road for hours as water was three feet deep and cars were already stalled in the water and owners being rescued from the tops of their cars. Finally, late in the evening, the wind and water had died down enough that they were letting 4WD trucks thru....so I got home, creeping inch by inch through a foot/2 feet of water at spots, very late. Both Freya and I were exhausted (I took her along for the ride with Thor to the trainer's).

I like the woman who is training him and he is comfortable with her too. She has two Malinois and four GSD's of her own that she takes up to Virginia for Schutzhund events....all gorgeous dogs. The kennels are spotless, the grounds more than adequate.

She took charge of Thor immediately and took him off for a quick walk to see how he behaved on leash. She had him heeling in 15 minutes...I was in awe. I stayed for two hours and watched her work her Malinois, toured the kennels and grounds, went over Thor's habits and diet, etc. She was thoughtful enough to call me last night to tell me that Thor was fine, had eaten all his dinner, had his treat at bedtime and she was going to start serious training today...she was letting him settle in for the first night before worrying him about anything else.

Today, I got a call from her. She loves Thor as does everyone who has met him...and he's met a bunch of new people. She tells me he is 'doubtful' about obedience. Yes, I asked. I didn't know either. As she explains it, the first 10 months of his life he was left alone, tied to a tree, unsocialized and isolated. The end result is he is unsure of himself; i.e. lacks self-esteem, particularly in insecure situations (which is anything outside of the house and me). Thus he's uncertain about what she's asking of him...but he did pretty well for a first day if a bit slow...and 'doubtful'...to respond. As he's not food/treat driven, she has to find what it is that he sees as a reward, though she says letting him run around off leash in the yard makes him happy. *grins*

But she also wanted to assure me of something else. She said that had it not been for his innate temperament (solemn, quiet, laid back), he could BE a dangerous dog. However, according to her, he doesn't have a 'mean bone' in his body. He met four strange men today, one her boyfriend (a big guy), who let him out of the kennel to the yard. Thor ambled along at his side, perfectly at ease. One man only did he take any 'interest' in...but it was funny, she said. As the man approached, Thor looked like he was humming to himself (la de da dum), and only watching this man from the corner of his eye. It wasn't until the man turned to leave that Thor's ears pricked, and she could hear him sniffing the air while watching the man closely. It was the only sign of unusual interest she observed. One correction and a 'look at me, Thor!' and he turned away immediately.

Whatever is going on between Thor and George is, in her mind, an anomaly...and may have something to do with George's fear and Thor's fear of George's fear....if that makes any sense the way I tried to explain it. She's is very hopeful that whatever is going on can be resolved by Thor being totally obedient to 'sit, stay' or 'come, down', whatever is needed at the time...and he and George meeting in her presence to see what the behavioral aspects of Thor are at that meeting.

Otherwise, she is quite pleased with Thor, and feels we can build his confidence in himself and his self-esteem. She's says one can't change temperament but one can alter behavior and fortunately, she likes Thor's temperament.

When I bring him home again in ten days, I will work with him separately from Freya (and Seamus if he's back here) and take Thor up once a week for additional obedience classes so he can get his CGC certificate, much needed for the county to un-label him from 'dangerous' if they do label him that way (they haven't yet). Things are looking up for Thor, though Freya is lonely...thank heavens for Kat's two dogs. They've been keeping her company while Thor is away.
 
#106 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

thanks for the update. Your trainer sounds like she's perfect for Thor needs.
 
#107 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Yeah! Go Thor Go. So glad he is getting the help you both need. Please keep us updated.
 
#109 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Part 2 about my pack of ruffians (Part one is in the General Behavior forum in Seamus's oddyssey thread).....

Yesterday, I went to pick up Thor from the trainer's and stopped en route to get Seamus first so she could evaluate him and his relationship with Thor (see the other thread about the results on Seamus). But Laura had me park away (downwind...*grins*) from Thor so she could work with Thor and George first. I peeked over the dashboard to watch when they were facing away from me and the truck. When they first appeared, George was walking alongside Laura and Thor. Periodically, they'd both kneel down, George handed treats to Thor and then they were up and walking again. They disappeared around a bend in the road but when they came back, GEORGE WAS WALKING THOR!!! I was stunned!

However, I know the exact moment he saw and recognized the truck. His entire focus changed and though he continued to heel and sit, his eyes were facing in my direction, ears at full point. Laura said she knew it too so as she was certain that George and Thor were okay, she moved to the fenced compound.

When they returned to the compound, she had me come inside and (after Thor and I hugged for minutes...*giggling*) stand with George, where either he or I threw toys for Thor to bring and generally just puttered around. George picked up sticks and threw them over the fence while Thor watched but seemed only curious but not concerned. There was no aggression, no reaction to George other than pleasure on Thor's part. Laura suggests that George and I meet frequently, that I hand treats to him to give to Thor, that we just socialize and expect Thor to do the same.

Thor has learned to walk, sit, turn, come, leave it and back which (after our time spent with George who went back to sit in the truck) Laura and I practiced together until she was certain I had the commands and the corrections down pat. I was weak on corrections and have to get tougher (it seems I was lacking that 'alpha' mode...*grins).

But the interesting news is that Laura thinks Thor is a big baby, without an aggressive bone in his body. She has in the past 10 days marched every type of human and animal past him and he is oblivious. He had one tentative reaction to one man early on which a mild correction resolved and she said he had the same tentative behavior towards George when he first saw him but it was over in a moment. She thinks he suffers from separation anxiety whenever I move out of sight (at least when he is away from the security of home) and that he's a big baby dog in the wrong body...nothing like the confidence and drive of a normal GSD. Even Freya is more confident than he is, which may explain why overly-dominant Seamus is exhibiting his behavior towards Thor. Thor is much larger (twice the weight of Seamus) but less confident and certainly not anywhere near as dominant as Seamus.

She's going to have a talk with the ACOs (one of whom's wife is her assistant and she's already asked him, "what's up with labeling Thor dangerous? He's a laid back, shy baby that had a major problem but that's over now.") We may never understand what happened with George other than the remnants of Thor's initial perception of George as a threat to me, but they have become BFF.

But with the training he's had so far, he's a different dog. We've walked three times since we got home and I had both Freya and Thor (who I walk together) heeling and sitting as nice as you please. And Seamus is responding just as well when I walked him. I'm finding my alpha, I think. *chuckles*

Both Thor and Seamus will be going to weekly obedience classes and she is sure they will both be able to get their CGC certificates. I am so proud of both of them. And I am soooooooo happy I found Laura....what a gift she has been to my pack and me.
 
#110 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

How exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is Seamus back home now? I need to go read the other thread.

YOU ARE A SAINT AND DESERVE ALL THE SUCCESS IN THE WORLD.
 
#112 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

WOWOOOO...Diane isn't this realization great. You just let your babies get the best of you. I have seen true alpha people (born that way); I mean with dogs and they almost seem magical to me. My dog will respond to an alpha person in a way that is most amazing. As if she were always at their side. I have a friend that has this inborn ability with dogs. I have watched her pack follow her off lead and not ever look at anything outside their path. I am learning but don't think I will ever be at that place mentally where my friend is. My husband is also much better than I am at the whole alpha role; as I witness the dog's behavior with him vs me. I am getting better at it; the real lesson that I have been learning over the last year is that the human (me) needs training and retraining. I actually can hear my trainers voice in my head sometimes telling me what I should or should not be doing. Good luck with your human training:) I also think that if George acts as an alpha with Thor the problems they had will disappear. Perhaps George should observe your sessions. Keep posting; I look forward to your writings.
 
#113 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

I just noticed I said my trainer not my dogs:))
 
#115 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

It's been over a month since I discussed Thor and his progress with the training routine so I thought I'd bring y'all up to date. He goes to training sessions every Sunday (with one Sunday missed due to rain, rain, rain..7 inches in 3 days). I will have to reschedule as the 'season' has begun and the drive is horrendous. Our 60 mile long, 2 lane highway is filled with the tourists changing over the beach cottages on weekends. Why can't people go at least the speed limit? It's ridiculous to have some idiot driving 35 in a 55 mile zone, lining up 80 cars behind him so no one can pass. But I digress...sorry for the rant. All it means is that we will have to go up during the week though it will deprive Thor of the interaction with all the other trainees on Sunday.

However, he is doing just fine. He listens well, heels, sits and stays as he's told to do, though sometimes slower to respond than we would like. He has lazy days, where it's almost as though he yawns with boredom and gives me a "Are we done yet?" look before continuing. He gets along with all the other dogs and their owners with nary a sign of any aggression. He plays with the dogs (male and female) in the compound after training time with pleasure.

Both he and Freya have calmed down to their old ways now that the stress of Seamus's presence in the household is no longer there. Thor has healed well from his wounds, though he has an impressive scar on his cheek (like a pirate...*smiles*), he's finally eating well again and gaining back a lot of his lost weight (he lost as much as 15 lbs while Seamus was here). Freya too is no longer frantic and is being used by the trainer to help with the dogs that tend to be fearful and anxious at the training ground.

During the week, I continue with his training on our walks. Once he's done his business and can focus, we do a 10 minute workout with heel, sit, stay and he responds well. One problem we have found with Thor is his complete disinterest in 'treats'. Both the trainer and I have offered treats as praise and he turns his head away. He doesn't go for any kind....hot dogs, cheese, crunchy bars, chicken...even squeaky toys (which he loves to play with). So we are limited to verbal praise and pats on the head.

Basically, he is lazy and laid back. The trainer has said so often he's an old bassett hound disguised as a GSD..."gimme my food, my warm bed and mom, that's all I want. Otherwise, just leave me alone." We have not seen much of George, though the bare few times we've crossed paths with him, Thor has shown no aggression towards him at all. So that part worked.

However, he did a strange thing the other day. It was warm, the sun was shining, both Thor and Freya are moulting (*grins* shedding) so I thought it was time for a bath. Freya was drying off on the porch and Thor was covered with bubbles when a car turned at the corner onto our street to the beach. Thor's head rose, and suddenly he was off and running, tearing the leash from my hand. I called and called for him to 'come' and he kept on chasing this car. I hopped into my truck and followed and caught up with both car and Thor near the beach. The car had stopped in the middle of the road and Thor was circling the car, barking with excitement, his tail waving madly in the air. I have to admit he actually looked like he was 'happy' to see this car.

I caught his leash and tossed him in the truck, went back to the car and apologized for scaring them to death, and took Thor home. The rest of the evening, I was super alpha towards him, giving him no leeway to not obey immediately if I told him to come, sit, stay, etc. He knew he was in trouble and eyed me with looks of shame. To this minute, neither the trainer nor I can explain this behavior. Cars by the dozens turn this corner every hour of the day (it IS the only one to the beach so it's well used) and he's never reacted this way to any of them.

So why this one? What was it about this car that caused him to chase it? There were no animals in the car, just two strange people, which he would not have been able to see at first thru our tall wooden fence that blocks the actual corner itself. He only caught a glimpse of the car as it passed the opening where I park the truck. But that glimpse was enough and he was gone in an instant. And it wasn't even a local car....just an out-of-state visitor...so he'd never seen it before.

Both the trainer and I however determined that this is something we have to correct in whatever method it takes, including the possibility of an electronic-collar. I mean, dear God, what if those folks had not just sat there waiting for me and had gotten out of the car. He wasn't wearing a muzzle as he was in our yard, on a leash, covered with soap. Would Thor have bitten them? Who knows. It's these rare events (like with George and this random car) that cause us to wonder what goes on in his head. This lazy, laid back, non-aggressive dog 99% of his life suddenly does weird things that are unaccountable given his normal behavior and personality.

Do you all think it's something from his life before he came to me? I mean, he spent 8 months of his puppyhood, the age when puppies' personalities are formed, tied to a tree all by himself, way away from any socialization with humans, dogs, cats, etc. Yet from the moment I first saw him, he's been the biggest baby, a true wuss of a dog. He has none of the drive that GSD's seem to have (even Freya has more than he does though she is such a gentle being, who the trainer wants to train as a therapy dog). So why these rare moments of idiocy?

Any thoughts????
 
#116 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Diane I am no expert but I just read through this and you need to be SO careful with Thor right now. This could have gone very badly again for him and you, if he still cannot be trusted to come back to you when you call and is strong enough to pull the leash from your hand please please have him tethered or on a zip line or something so he cannot get out of your yard.
Can't wait to meet you and Thor and Freya!
Susan
 
#117 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

I am so happy to read that things are going well for you, Thor and Freya!!! Good job. I only hope that when I make mistakes, and I know that I have and will again, that I can handle them as well as you have.
 
#118 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Just another money saving suggestion. You can try freecycle.org and craigslist to find low cost or even free muzzles, leashes, books, dvds, etc. You can post a wanted request, and some people have these items laying around and are willing to send them to you.

It can be done. Good luck.
 
#120 ·
Originally Posted By: gdog1985
Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9Ok, I'm sorry, but this dog has bit before and yet you let him off leash?? I just don't get it, I'm sorry.
I agree. I'm suprised that AC didn't take him right away since this is the second time and the same person. How do you think your neighbor feels?
Do you realize this was a post from 2-26, the issue is being addressed, and the neighbor, who's name is George, was participating in Thor's training?
She took way more than enough of a beating at the time. I think we can be done with that now.
 
#122 ·
I am glad things are going well. Life is full of mistakes.. it's all about what you do with them that matters.

Maybe I will see you and Thor on Hatteras sometime

I have gone every summer since I was 4 years old..(I come from a family of fisherman) and I make eyes at every GSD I see.. lol. Hatteras, Ocracoke and the outer banks in general are my favorite places on earth.. when I win the lottery maybe I'll be your neighbor.

I hope things keep on the right track with the training.. I wish you good luck!!!
 
#123 ·
Originally Posted By: wrennyShe knows what she did wrong. Stop making it any worse. You are probably making her cry everytime she reads this by belittling her even after she admitted she made a very horrible mistake.

Start helping her and stop insulting her.
People are trying to help. I haven't read any posts (didn't read them all though) that were mean spirited or cruel hearted toward the OP, but she has offered her story on the Internet and asked for advice... putting myself in the shoes of the poor neighbor, she's lucky he didn't come back outside with a gun and end the debate right there - as much as I love dogs, you let one bite me twice in my driveway and they'll be putting it in a bag to haul away.

The OP does not posess the self discipline and control necessary to guarantee it won't happen again. Already, while in fear of losing the dog, she is hedging her bets with "ifs" and "unless's". The best idea I've read is to give the dog to someone who can train and manage it.

I feel for the OP, very much, but she is being negligent and probably will again.
 
#124 ·
Originally Posted By: LedZep
Originally Posted By: wrennyShe knows what she did wrong. Stop making it any worse. You are probably making her cry everytime she reads this by belittling her even after she admitted she made a very horrible mistake.

Start helping her and stop insulting her.
People are trying to help. I haven't read any posts (didn't read them all though) that were mean spirited or cruel hearted toward the OP, but she has offered her story on the Internet and asked for advice... putting myself in the shoes of the poor neighbor, she's lucky he didn't come back outside with a gun and end the debate right there - as much as I love dogs, you let one bite me twice in my driveway and they'll be putting it in a bag to haul away.

The OP does not posess the self discipline and control necessary to guarantee it won't happen again. Already, while in fear of losing the dog, she is hedging her bets with "ifs" and "unless's". The best idea I've read is to give the dog to someone who can train and manage it.

I feel for the OP, very much, but she is being negligent and probably will again.
Oh, lighten up. I think you really need to chill and accept the fact that this debate is OVER.
Way over. As in months old. Where have you been?
So you really FEEL for the OP?
Nice way to show it.
 
#125 ·
Well, Thor and Freya met Rowansd, her husband and young son (lovely people, by the way), and though they were overly excited by all the new people and the appearance/presence of our outside cat, I can honestly say...nobody was chewed to pieces by Thor. He of course barked like a maniac when I closed him in the house away from all the fun, but that is normal for him. He barks at anything and everything...very vocal dog.

Kaitadog, we are waiting on the e-collar for the time being but I will check the closest freecycle if we decide to go ahead with it, though since the nearest freecycle is 125 miles away, it would probably cost me as much for gas and time as it would to just purchase it online. *smiles*

Gdog, I can tell you how the neighbor feels. He wrote a letter to the AC's begging them to leave Thor with me, asking them to understand that Thor had initially seen a threat in his (the neighbor's) behavior when he waved a handful of branches at me. You should know that Thor had seen the neighbor on the same street dozens and dozens of times in the three previous years since Thor had come to live with me and there had never been any issues or problems prior to that day.

LedZep, you're correct - you haven't read all the posts. Ergo, you must have missed the parts where I mentioned that the neighbor came with me to the trainer's and he and Thor worked out their 'differences'. In fact, the neighbor was actually walking Thor by himself, with no problems at all. And there have been none since then on the occasions we've met on the street. Further, I also mentioned that it has taken me some time but I am finding my "alpha" self. I had never needed it before now so I'm learning as much from the training sessions as Thor is. I am not negligent nor is it something I take lightly. I am doing everything I can to correct the past errors .. and Thor and I are doing quite well, thank you very much for your concern. And what the heck is an 'OP'?

Blitz_mom, would be very nice to see any visitor to the OBX, especially fellow GSD owners. Do you bring Blitz with you when you travel?

And Lucina, we still have to figure out a time to have our dogs "do lunch" together. Darn, I'll bet I pass right close to you once a week when I take my two up for training.

Thanks for those who have offered me good advice and ideas and for those who understand that mistakes happen....it's how you face those mistakes and grow from them. I am hardly ignoring them and as a result, Thor and I are both improving. We may not be perfect yet but we're both working towards that goal.
 
#126 ·
Originally Posted By: Hatterasser And what the heck is an 'OP'?
"OP" means the Original Poster, ie, the one starting the posted topic.
 
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