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A second bite and I'm terrified!

19K views 140 replies 60 participants last post by  scannergirl 
#1 ·
I'm terrified and sick to my stomach that I may lose Thor.

He's bitten the same guy he bit a few months back. AC was automatically called (I understand the need for this so am not complaining about it) and they will be back Thursday to discuss what must be done....either another 10 days of automatic quarantine or the worse possible scenario, they will take him. As this particular attack (and yes, let's call it what it was...an ATTACK) was unprovoked, I fear it will be the latter. I keep bursting into tears as I can't bear the thought.

I had both Freya and Thor out for their walks, both on leashes. I wanted to work on them being off-leash and coming when I called. I let Freya off first and let her romp, calling her two or three times to return to me. She was figuring it out nicely, so I leashed her again and released Thor. Same thing...he romped around but returned to me the first time I called him. I let him go again and he ran off down the road....then stopped! His ears pricked up, his hackles rose. I could see this even though I was a quarter of a block away. I called him, my eyes searching for what caught his interest. I know there is a pack of feral cats that live in the area and thought he might have seen one of them, though his hackles don't lift for them usually, just his interest is piqued. But Thor didn't come, nor did he move....he just stood there.

Then I saw George coming down his steps. I watched as Thor tensed and called to George to 'get back in the house'. Unfortunately, I was too far away for him to hear me. I called Thor again, but he just stood. You have to know I was racing towards him by this time, dragging Freya along, as I knew...I KNEW...what was going to happen. Thor, ever since the first time he bit George for what he perceived as a threat to me, has hated George. Even walking past his house, Thor glances at it, his ears up, his hackles often up as well, even though no one is around.

Sure enough, George reached his driveway and Thor took off, circling George and lunging at his legs. George started squealing and screaming and hitting out at Thor with a bag he had in his hand. I told him "Just stand still, George, don't move" but let's face it, even if he had heard me, it would have been hard to stand still when a 100 lb. shepherd is nipping at your legs. I called Thor again, told him "Leave it! Come!" and he started back towards me. George turned towards the house but half way back to me, Thor turned and ran back again. Fortunately, George had gotten to a safe place under the house and with a few barks, Thor finally listened to me and came back. I leashed him at once and wondered ' what do I say to him? how do I correct his behavior? will he even understand what I'm telling him if I say bad dog or no biting or anything?'

Besides, I was shaking so badly I could only be grateful that I had him leashed by that time. I finally reached George's house and as he was climbing the stairs to the door, I called, "Are you okay?" When he said, "Thor bit me again and ripped my pants" I blanched. I am surprised my legs held me up. He pulled up his pant leg and blood was dripping down. Deja vu!

I took both dogs home, got in my truck, drove back to George's and piled him in to take him to the doctor's....again. Fortunately, this time it was just some scratches and one small puncture so they cleaned him up, put on some antibiotic salve, gave him a prescription for antibiotics and I took him to the pharmacy and then home. Naturally, they called AC and the vet to check up on Thor's shots. I will pay for the prescriptions and whatever his medicare doesn't cover, plus a new pair of pants and socks, but that does not solve the problem.

The doctor tried to make me feel better with a little joking comment; i.e. "You have to keep these two out of the same playground." I know he was trying to make me feel better but I don't.

Thor doesn't bite anyone else. I've had strange men all over the house during the replacement of my heating system, Kat (my daughter) has friends in and out of the house all the time, we meet other neighbors all the time when out for walks, but Thor only goes for George. I don't know what to do and I'm sooooooo frightened that AC will see him as a vicious dog and want to put him down. Just typing those words make tears gush. He's NOT vicious! Dang, Seamus attacked him and he REACTED, he was not PROACTIVE in that event.

What's wrong with Thor? What do I tell the AC when they get here? I don't want them to take him but I fear they will. Even the problems with Seamus dim compared to this dilemma.
 
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#77 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

The dogs and the owner are awfully lucky. All you have to do is check this board for stories like TTall's to get that affirmed. (And TTall's dog didn't even bite!) I think this is a lesson for everyone, especially those taking in older dogs of unknown backgrounds - "afford" training sooner rather than later and be especially careful if your dog is edgy at home because of changes there -- what is impacting him at home will likely carry over to other situations. Another resource all of us should keep in mind in case we are ever faced with the situation of being forced to dispose of a dog - Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Knab Utah.
 
#78 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

I live in a relatively small town but there are leash laws and there are leash free areas. The majority of dog owners here, ignore rules concerning both areas. Sometimes confrontations occur when dogs who are consistently off leash in areas they are not supposed to be, start to become possessive about common areas. These dogs are owned by the same owners who refuse to control their dogs even after a problem has occurred.

Dogs need structured boundaries and consistent leadership in a normal dog pack but in many cases (with minimal direction) many dogs fit into human requirements with no problems --- but sometimes they do NOT and they need firmer direction. No dog needs (even if they are capable of handling it) the unrestricted freedom to make their own decisions and providing they get enough excercise and interaction with other dogs and humans they should be confident members of society.

Dogs do not need to be let run free to do what they want to do including bailing up or mauling someone outside their property - however, if the owner does not specify a boundary some dogs will assume a far greater extent of ownership of that property than the owner is aware.

I had a dog that displayed this behaviour and she was never let off leash (even in "safe areas") from the first time it happened no matter where we lived.
 
#79 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: LouCastle
Originally Posted By: Skye'sMomFlexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard. I have heard of them snapping and I heard of badly cut hands and legs from the lines when they are stretched out.
Originally Posted By: Susan FAgree here. Flexis are useless and dangerous for big dogs.
Flexis are not perfect but they are far from "useless." To be accurate, here's what my website says about them.
Quote: There are two types of retractable leashes available. One uses a string and the other uses a flat nylon strap as the leash. I recommend the latter as the first one can cause injuries, including rope burns and some even more serious. Be sure not to grab the line, with either type. If the dog takes off, you can get some burns on your hand. Use only the mechanism provided to stop and start the leash. If you wear shorts while you're training be sure not to let the leash rub against your leg. If the dog decides to take off running, you can get rope burns.

I recommend that you rig a loop of rope through the handle of the mechanism that will go around your wrist so that if the dog pulls the mechanism from your hand it's still attached to your wrist, just like a standard leash.
I only recommend the Flexi for teaching the early phase of the recall.
Sorry, Lou -- but I wholeheartedly disagree with using a retractable lead on any dog over 20 lbs. They break, they teach dogs to pull and your grip using your fingertips holding the handle can never be as strong as a palm grip on a regular leash or long line.

We just had one of our dogs get killed because her adopter (who had had her for a week) was walking her on a Flexi, she got frightened, bolted, he lost his grip and she was hit by a car and killed.

No, there is never a circumstance (particularly a circumstance involving a large German shepherd with a bite history) under which I will recommend a retractable leash.
 
#80 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Congratulations, Diane! I think this is the best possible outcome for you and Thor (and even Seamus). Obviously the ACO is advocating for Thor.

As for this:
Quote: What was the point of rescuing him just to have it end that way but she points out that sometimes, that end is more peaceful for stressed dogs than living with the stress.
I agree that sometimes it is more inhumane to force a dog to live a life that causes him unhappiness and continued stress. For some, the injustices of their past have so colored their present that their future can never be bright.

The point of rescuing a dog is to give it a chance at a happy life. If his life can never be happy, then what's the point of forcing him to live it?

On the other hand, it sounds like the trainer you have lined up is willing to give it a go and see if both Thor and Seamus can live happily.
 
#81 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Just a sort of update on who's who for y'all and which dog was rescued from which environment:::::

Thor, 4 yrs old (approximately), almost 100 lbs. Lived tied to a tree in the north 40 of someone's back yard from age 3 months to age almost 1 yr. When he first came to me, he was not housebroken, had no clue of commands, was socially isolated, edgy and a loner. Since his arrival, he has become as close to a Velcro dog as possible (to me anyway); i.e has bonded to me. He is housebroken, sits, stays, comes (most of the time...obviously George was an aberration), drops/leaves it. Is socialized with people and dogs and our cats, though he barks at everything including any commercials that have an animal in it. P.S.pinkanml got it pretty much right in her post about what initially caused the breach of trust between Thor and George in the first place.

Freya, 2 and 1/2 (approximately), 88 lbs. Rescued from the local shelter in November 2007. Shy, sweet natured, the pacifier of the pack though she's a tween with a touch of typical teen 'attitude' now and then. Had apparently belonged to someone at one time but was a stray when picked up and had recently had puppies (sadly, never found). She is housebroken, understands tho' doesn't always immediately obey commands (except dinner time where she sits/stays at once until I say 'alright'...she isn't gonna give up a meal to prove a point...*grins). She tends to whimper/whine (best description I can think of) as a form of communication more than bark (which she does rarely) and loves everyone. Curious about the cats though not aggressive...likes to pounce on bugs and grasshoppers more. She bonded with Thor and likewise in return by Thor by the second day here..and lay at his side all the time his leg was healing from Seamus's attack. She now avoids any contact (eye or otherwise) with Seamus.

Seamus, 8 years (approximately), now 51 lbs (from 43 when he arrived). Rescued from a kill shelter in Ohio, transported down to NC in January 2008, neutered just before he was shipped out. From day one, we knew he had issues. Not housebroken (though he is now), no response to commands (though he now sits/stays for meals, leashing, etc. and returns to my side with clicking of tongue and his name...as do the other two). He abhors Thor and as you all know, attacked him (unprovoked except for his own issues..perhaps remainder of testoterones, perhaps territorial, perhaps fear...we don't know). Thor seems to be his main nemesis as he accepts Freya, as well as daughter's dogs Oliver (pitbull/boxer mix) and Izzy (pb pug). He loves people, is a regular Velcro dog to any human who wants to pet, pat, love him. Has an enormous amount of energy for an older dog (and I thought at one time, "Old dog, nice and quiet". Boy, was I mistaken). Lives isolated from the family/pack in his hallway 4' by 20'....not ideal but keeps everyone alive.

Since Seamus's arrival, the household and the family/pack have been in an uproar. All of us are under continual stress, there is little peace. Seamus's quarters, while safe and warm, are not sufficient or adequate for an active, human-loving dog. I know he will need to be rehomed if he is to live a good life (and if Thor, Freya and I are to live a good life). We have three options now that his battle wounds are healed and he is off his medications:
1. Find a better home for Seamus.
2. Hope that the trainer we have found for Thor will be able to find a solution for their joint animosity.
3. Put him down

The reason I write so freely on this site is to share the day to day trials and tribulations of an every day pet owner, as I am sure that not everyone here is the PERFECT owner and that everyone here has made mistakes in judgement and handling of our pets. Others have experienced similar problems to mine and come to this site for guidance, moral support and advice. Most of us can accept 'corrections' (so to speak) from those who have been there, done that and got three t-shirts for their efforts. But I know that many won't post their own experiences as frequently the responses to their woes are met by self-righteous PERFECT dog owners who can't understand how it was even possible to make mistakes or errors in judgement. These folks don't offer good advice, don't offer any empathy (as opposed to sympathy), but rather look down their noses at we simple dog lovers who try to do our best to love our furbabies and raise them well. Not always well or wise, but God knows we try.

Furthermore, we all know our own 'terrain', our own neighbors/neighborhoods, our own environments and most especially our own dogs, cats, horses, ferrets and other pets. Unless you have walked in our shoes per se, it is difficult to judge what we're talking about. It helps when we owners with troubled situations get advice specific to the handling of our pets, though it is not helpful to have personal attacks on our perceived stupidity, behavior or personality.

Sorry if that raises anyone hackles but as much as I try to focus on only the good advice, I find it only adds to my distress when someone posts their self-prescribed "tough but necessary advice" which is not directed at the dog's issues but at MY ineptness, MY stupidity, MY supposed inability to even own a dog. Trust me, it is NOT helpful in any way. I'm sure there are other struggling owners who feel the same way.

I am keeping the faith that this trainer will work miracles in ways I have been unable and too inexperienced to accomplish. I pray she can guide me to help Thor and George, and Seamus and Thor, to resolve their issues and everyone can live happily ever after (my way of being facetious, by the way). I am hoping Thor can earn his CGC certificate. I am hoping he can even find a "job" to keep him busy in his everyday life with me...he's a great tracker by nature, so to find some game to play of that type would be great.

Mostly, I'm trying to rectify a HUGE error in judgement on my part for rescuing the third dog, Seamus, and upsetting and creating chaos in what was a perfectly comfortable household. I am struggling with that spontaneous, ill-thought-out decision every day and attempting to do the best thing for all three of my dogs.

Thank you all for being interested in these problems and I hope it helps any dog owner who faces the big decisions with their pets in tough times to know that there are others sharing your plight. Because no human and no dog is perfect....and there will be tough times. But from my own experiences here, I know there are folks who care and will try to help when and where they can.
 
#82 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

I'm glad you've found a trainer and will get some good advice. Sounds like a good plan.
 
#83 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

I'm glad that Thor has been given another chance & I hope the Trainer is able to help all of you. I think George must be a great person to have gone through two experiences with Thor & still be willing to help you out. I hope that he is willing & able to attend some training sessions and that a truce can be reached between he & Thor.

As for Seamus, it seems he would be perfectly fine as an only dog or with another compatable dog. He doesn't seem a candidate for euthanasia at this time (although I do not disagree that in some situations it is a kindness). It seems that Thor is the trouble, and as others have said, he may resemble a dog that attacked Seamus in the past.

My thoughts are with you, you are very brave to have done all that you have AND have the guts to share the good, the bad & the ugly on a public forum. Please keep us all posted and the best of luck to all of you!

Kristina
 
#84 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Did your daughter end up moving in?
If so could you not rotate the social groups since Seamus gets along with all others except Thor. Seamus could devide time in the outdoor kennel or hallway.

Have you talked morer to the trainer? It would make me nervous to hand over my dog for two weeks. Not that you have many options but I am sure it will still be tough.

When was the first, more serious attack on George? Before or after Seamus?

If your daughter did not move in could she take Seamus? Is he doing better on the leash?

The Seamus saga was amazing. You definately bit off more than you imagined or were told. I admire that you have hung in there.

Sorry if my earlier remarks were harsh but my niece was just bitten in the face by a dog that had attacked three kids previously. She is three and will require at LEAST two surgeries. My brother will not rest until this dog is euthenized.

Not at all the same story. I am truely happy Thor is getting help.
 
#85 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Thanks for telling us you are involved with rescue. And your neighbor is absolutely first class. You owe this guy a big time kiss.

I know nothing about your rescue group, but some will take an aggressive dog to a more experienced person.

I now have two rescues, but figured the rescue group I am involved with gave me the easy ones (White GSD's) because I just started a few months ago.

Anyway, will your rescue group help. Frankly, you might get lucky with a trainer, but from personal experience unless you go high end, you could probably do a better job. Of course, just a personal opinion based on experience.

The quick answer always seems to be get a trainer, and I think that is mostly BS. I have heard this so many times I wish it could be a permanent delete.

You made a mistake. Who on God's earth doesn't. Move on and accept what advice is helpful to you.

Finally, despite the incident with George, if anyone on is board is doing a better job of taking in and dealing with rescues I would sure like to hear from them.
 
#86 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: Hatterasser........, I find it only adds to my distress when someone posts their self-prescribed "tough but necessary advice" which is not directed at the dog's issues but at MY ineptness, MY stupidity, MY supposed inability to even own a dog. .....
A public board should bring a variety of points of view to any discussion. The responses are not necessarily aimed at making you feel bad or good or being what you want. The information/ responses are aimed at the situation. They are aimed at a wide audience, not solely the orignial poster. The posts can be seen by virtually anyone and I believe we owe honest responses whether they are regarded as pleasant or unpleasant. As you have experienced, the board is diverse and has diverse opinions. That's the essense of a discussion board - discussion.
 
#87 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: HatterasserI am sure that not everyone here is the PERFECT owner and that everyone here has made mistakes in judgement and handling of our pets.
Well that certainly describes me Diane and is part of the reason I have hesitated to post since you learned that Animal Control wants to work with you and there is a trainer available to you for Thor. Our dear Wolf's bite of our nice neighbor would have been easy to avoid-but as they say-if I knew then what I know now.

So even though I am not in a position to give advice, may I say that I would not force Thor to interact with George on the initial trip to the trainer. Although it is clear that the trainer would learn something from watching Thor's response to George my understanding was that you have other training goals. A 100% reliable recall-a firm leave it. Perhaps I am wrong but the way I read your post was that Thor would be forced to drive for sometime with George in the car. That sounds like too much pressure to be followed by training with a stranger for several days.

Again, not that I know what I'm talking about, but I would also hesitate to add Seamus to the mix, if the point is to tone up your training with Thor. I believe that you said that Seamus and Thor would both be happier divorced, so I don't exactly see why you have to add the challenge of reuniting them to your other work.

With these options offered you by Animal Control (and not others!), your world must look brighter.

Mary Jane
 
#88 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Glad things are moving in a positive direction and bless that wonderful neighbor.

From the sounds of things, I would work on finding Seamus another home where he can get the attention he needs. It was lovely of you to take him in and give it a try but if he has your house in an uproar.....with everything else you are coping with, sounds like you don't need that issue too!

I would follow the advice of the trainer absent clear reason not to do so. Trainers have different methods and can be second-guessed all day long. Best of luck to you!
 
#89 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

mjb03...Yes, daughter is finally ensconced happily in the house (do our children ever leave home permanently anymore these days? *laughing*) but she has her own business and life and is seldom home.

I am of course nervous about leaving Thor with a total stranger but I have spoken to the woman several times and she sounds level-headed and sensible. The ACOs swear by her (her specialty is with German Shepherd and Belgian Malinois). Too bad we can't give our furbabies a cell phone to call home if they're upset or scared. But Thor will do okay, I'm sure. He's a quiet, solemn lad who only wants to be with me so I hope he focuses on his lessons so he can come home as soon as possible.

By the way, there's a post on page 3 (I think) of this thread by pinkanml that recaps the original incident between George and Thor very well. It occurred before either Freya or Seamus arrived and was due to a perceived threat (on Thor's part) by George against me.

Interestingly, the day that the ACOs were visiting me, my own boss was bitten by a pit bull on her chin (56 stitches and future plastic surgery required) so I can empathize with your niece. I pray she will recover well and will not hate dogs as result....I'm sure you'll help her with both.

Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get). Thor came from a backyard where he was tied on a short chain for 8 months of his puppyhood. Freya came from our local county shelter but Thor and I both met her before we decided to adopt. So I have no recourse but to deal with the situation as I have it.

As to trainers, I've been searching for a trainer since even before the first George incident. Thor is a big, strong, stubborn (sometimes) dog who has pulled on the leash since I got him. I always wanted to have some lessons with him so I am looking forward to this entire process.

MaryJane....I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Let my try and clarify it. When I take Thor up to the trainer's, he will ride in the bed of the truck (covered by a cap, I should point out). I will bring only Seamus on this trip and he will ride in the back seat of the truck (the two will be separated the entire ride....and yes, I'm a good ole southern gal with a dual cab, 4wd, pickup truck). The trainer will watch both Thor and Seamus and try to see which one of them is the aggressor. She has told me that though I believe it to be Seamus, it could be Thor that is actually giving subtle moves and threats that I'm not picking up. Then....Thor will stay with her for two weeks and Seamus will come home with me.

When I go back to pick up Thor two weeks later, then and only then will I bring George along. Trainer will watch the interractions between them, work with any aggression she sees on the spot, have me work with Thor and between her, George and me, attempt to reach some form of detente before we leave. Then we'll all go home together, though Thor will once again be in the rear of the truck and no where near George on the ride.

Thor and I will continue to travel up the beach once a week for some time after this, until he gets his CGC certificate, so we can turn that over to the Dept. of Health and the ACOs...and so I feel I have a better handle on controlling him.

As a side note........I've been reading three books sent to me by a lovely lady from this very site (I won't mention her name as I'm not sure she'd want me to) but they are fascinating...and I can't thank her enough. I've been reading "For the Love of a Dog" and "The Other End of the Leash" by behaviorist Patricia McConnell and "Bringing Light to Shadow" by Pamela Dennison. I find it amazing how lacking in vision we humans are, how many small signs our dogs give us that we miss. Somewhere on this site, though heaven knows where, I remember seeing something by someone to the effect that "We learn more from our dogs than they ever learn from us". So true...and I'm learning.

But hey, I've heard that Alzheimers affects those that don't use their brains so teaching this 'old dog' some new tricks can't be all bad. If that's true, I can keep going for another 20 years (assuming this old bod can hold up that long) *grinning*
 
#90 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

So proud of the work you are doing Diane. Also for your bravery continuing to post after some of the truely scathing responses you have received. You may also enjoy reading "Calming signals" I can't remember the author but I will get it for you. I liked it because of the insite to the ever so slight body changes that before I didn't pick up on. Ever little bit we learn on reading our furry best friends is helpful I think. I wish you the very best with the trainer. I hope that you will continue to update how you and the dogs are doing. I for one am sending you nothing but positive thoughts and vibes for both Thor and Seamus. Keep up the good work. And hug George again for all of us.
 
#91 ·
I too am glad that things seem to be looking up for you.

I'd like to point out something you said at the beginning. I don't bring it up to criticize you in any way, because you certainly have stepped up to the plate. But rather, as a precaution to others:

Quote:

And please, I beg all of you not to repeat again and again that I should talk to a good trainer or a behaviorist. I don't know how many ways I can explain that the nearest trainer/behaviorist is well over 4 or 5 hours away from me, that I live on a pension, that it takes more than I can afford to buy gas just to drive to the vet's (70 miles away), which I've done 3 times this past month. I'm alone here, folks.
There have been discussions at this forum, often heated discussions, about who should get dogs in terms of finances, the argument being that if they can't afford a substantial breeder's fee or a high adoption fees perhaps they don't have any business getting a dog (or another dog) because you never know what might go wrong and how much it's going to cost .

I think your experience has been a big eye-opener to a lot of us here for a lot of reasons, and one of them is that when things go wrong, they can get very expensive, simply in terms of finances, not even mentioning the heartbreak, stress, and possibility of losing your dog.

I truly don't mean to criticize you personally. But I thought that this lesson might be useful to others thinking about getting a dog (or another dog) here. That's why I wanted to call attention to what you wrote previously. Somehow, you're managing to pay for the training, in spite of what you previously said, which must be a considerable hardship. You're to be commended for that.
 
#93 ·
Diane
You are a class act. You handle all this with such dignity and then have the courage to lay it out for all to see and critisize.

I hope you do not mind but I printed all your threads out for my brother to read. I thought it might help in dealing with the family of the dog that bite his daughter. Compassion seems to be the first casualty during a stressful situation.
 
#94 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Quote:Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get).
Being a frequent visitor to the URGENT Section (and not pointed at you, Diane), but this statement hit a chord. Often, those of us who are in rescue and "have seen it all" get beat up badly by others when we try to throw up red flags, question when someone is trying to pull a specific dog, etc. We've learned the hard way that dogs posted in that section can be posted by anyone (remember, again, that this is a Public forum) and they are all listed as "sweet" and "SOMEBODY'S GOT TO HELP HIM OR HE WILL DIIIIIIEEEE!"

We try to encourage individuals to work through the rescue groups so that we can get good temperament evaluations, etc., and help increase the odds that the dog will be a good fit for the home. (It also helps ensure that the dog ends up in a home that can handle him/her.)

We have also learned that not everybody's temperament evaluations are reliable, have a fairly good idea whose are rock-solid, etc., and then the dogs get further evaluation once they're in foster care. So, Diane, I don't know that it's as much a matter of not meeting the dog prior to adoption (less than half of our adopters actually meet their dog prior to adoption), as much as making certain that you have good, reliable information and you (or anyone else) is THINKING about the information instead of just reacting to the emotion.

Also, a good rescue group will back up the adoption and take the dog back if it doesn't work out.
 
#96 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: Skye'sMom
Flexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard.
I use a Flexi just to potty walk the dog on my property. Never off property. One of the biggest issues is that if you have it on Flexi mode and not locked the dog can run fast and hard and you can't react fast enough to lock it. In order to lock it you have to use your thumb and once you don't have a grip with the thumb you can lose the dog or the dog can reach someone and bite.
 
#97 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: DianaM,,,,be relaxed.

One thing that is on my mind, though- if Thor exhibits NO aggressive behavior whatsoever to anyone but the neighbor, what did the neighbor do to deserve being the target of Thor's only aggression?
Maybe nothing, but sometimes you just never know.
Well my dog hates a neighbor because she appeared from in between some bushes one day in the same place a bear frightened her and all the treat throwing over the years still hasn't worked. But yes above all breath slowly and deeply and let the dog know you are relaxed when you try this. Maybe even ask the neighbor for an old sneaker of his and let Thor sniff it for doing something good. Yelling and screaming will wind up a dog and I'm sure that Thor didn't even process anything like come or any other command at that point.
 
#98 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Diane,

When you get to the end of Pam's book I'm really sure it will really hit home. I love what she keeps telling herself and you will see your own story in it.

Good luck and I bet you and the boys (Thor and George) just may have the beginnings of a great friendship.

Karen
 
#99 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: Susan F
Quote:Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get).


Also, a good rescue group will back up the adoption and take the dog back if it doesn't work out.
Absolutely!!! All of our contracts state that there is a trial period where the dog will be taken back immediately, we also will take a dog back outside that but it follows along the lines of owner surrender. I hate to see bad things happen to these animals, but it is unfair to the dog and the adopting party to not be given a fair evaluation, not just while in a shelter, but also how he/she reacts in a real life home setting.
 
#100 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: Susan F
Quote:Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get).
Being a frequent visitor to the URGENT Section (and not pointed at you, Diane), but this statement hit a chord. Often, those of us who are in rescue and "have seen it all" get beat up badly by others when we try to throw up red flags, question when someone is trying to pull a specific dog, etc. We've learned the hard way that dogs posted in that section can be posted by anyone (remember, again, that this is a Public forum) and they are all listed as "sweet" and "SOMEBODY'S GOT TO HELP HIM OR HE WILL DIIIIIIEEEE!"

We try to encourage individuals to work through the rescue groups so that we can get good temperament evaluations, etc., and help increase the odds that the dog will be a good fit for the home. (It also helps ensure that the dog ends up in a home that can handle him/her.)

We have also learned that not everybody's temperament evaluations are reliable, have a fairly good idea whose are rock-solid, etc., and then the dogs get further evaluation once they're in foster care. So, Diane, I don't know that it's as much a matter of not meeting the dog prior to adoption (less than half of our adopters actually meet their dog prior to adoption), as much as making certain that you have good, reliable information and you (or anyone else) is THINKING about the information instead of just reacting to the emotion.

Also, a good rescue group will back up the adoption and take the dog back if it doesn't work out.
AMEN! Most people have no idea what we rescues go thru...and when we have to put down a dog for an iffy temperament we are thrown to the lions, when in fact it was the irresponsible owner at fault. We just clean up the messes and are the bad guys when the dogs fail temp testing. I would also like to add my two cents worth about MOST of the dogs I have pulled from this board...VERY FEW I HAVE GOTTEN HAVE BEEN EVALED CORRECTLY. I HAVE BEEN GIVEN BAD OR INCORRECT INFORMATION ABOUT THE DOGS BEHAVIORS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF PULLING A GSD OUT AF A SHELTER. MOST OF THEM ARE RED FLAG CASES THAT I HAVE A HECK OF A TIME PLACING INTO HOMES WHERE I KNOW THEY WON'T FAIL.
I know Diane has learned a valuable lesson and I dare say Thor will not be off lead again. But this is the EXACT type of case that is put on the board for us rescues to save....If we get shut down for placing aggressive dogs then the dogs suffer, bottom line.
 
#101 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

k9sarneko....both of McConnell's books address those small subtle moves that dogs make that we as humans miss. And you're right...it is amazing how much we miss them but once one learns to watch for them, it makes a big difference in how one views the dog. I've been watching all three of mine lately and seeing the signs that matter.

3K9Mom....You are soooo right. Prior to the arrival of Seamus, all I worried about was how much my dogs ate and how much their annual checkups would cost. The inclusion of my third 'rescued' dog has upped the ante 10 times what I expected. It wasn't just the cost of the rescue/adoption fees but the vet fees from the blood battle between Thor and Seamus and the medical costs to cover poor George's doctor's visit. I don't think that prospective dog owners should have their tax returns reviewed as part of the rescue/adoption process (that's a joke, folks) but I think prospective dog owners ought to know their own ability to cover unexpected expenses. I was caught off-guard and was ill prepared to deal with costs I've incurred but the responsibility to care for my dogs is mine and I'll have to find the way.

mjb03....*snickering* sure you can send the posts to your brother but don't forget to include the scathing attacks on my ineptness, stupidity and idiocy as well. He needs both viewpoints, don't you think?

Susan F....sadly, the URGENT forum was what caused me to make an ill-advised adoption even though there was originally in the initial posts some mention of 'aggression' that later was changed to 'sweet, sad dog in need of a good home'. It is without question a good forum for saving dogs from kill shelters and horrendous conditions but I have concluded that the individual should avoid taking a chance on their own. It is IMHO better to allow a rescue group who is aware of the potential behavioral problems take the rescue first, do a thorough evaluation of the the dog and then put the dog up for adoption if it is determined not only that the dog has no or few essential problems but can also be directed to the proper home environment.

I have to say that Nancy Meyers from the Chillicothe Ross County Shelter WOULD have taken Seamus back but who's going to go through the horrendous difficulty of arranging transport back from North Carolina to Ohio...and what would that solve anyway? He would have been going back to a kill shelter, which was the entire purpose of adopting him out in the first place. All the time, effort and money would have been wasted in a move like that.

mmiller....And for both you and Susan F, I for one applaud your efforts, even if in the end, a dog must be put down for issues unresolvable. My own ACO (as mentioned in one of my threads) has doubts about Seamus and has told me that she would help where she could but suggested that he perhaps should be put down. I will wait until I introduce him to the trainer and allow her to evaluate the issues between Seamus and Thor, add that to the ACO's opinions and then come up with a decision that works best for Seamus himself. I know that if I finally conclude that he is too far gone to deal with and decide to put him down, I will be pummelled with stones and rocks from many on this site. But all I can say is 'walk in my, and my dog's, shoes/paws first'. I don't think anyone can make judgement calls until they do.

LUV_GSDs....But I will finish with those books first, gal. Each page gives me more information than I ever knew existed about dogs. *grins* Dogs were just dogs to me until I began reading. It is amazing to me to see how their brains work and how my interraction with them can be more than confusing to them. I think all dog owners should read about their dogs; you begin to realize that much of their problems is based on what you as their owner do, or not do as the case may be.
 
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