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A second bite and I'm terrified!

19K views 140 replies 60 participants last post by  scannergirl 
#1 ·
I'm terrified and sick to my stomach that I may lose Thor.

He's bitten the same guy he bit a few months back. AC was automatically called (I understand the need for this so am not complaining about it) and they will be back Thursday to discuss what must be done....either another 10 days of automatic quarantine or the worse possible scenario, they will take him. As this particular attack (and yes, let's call it what it was...an ATTACK) was unprovoked, I fear it will be the latter. I keep bursting into tears as I can't bear the thought.

I had both Freya and Thor out for their walks, both on leashes. I wanted to work on them being off-leash and coming when I called. I let Freya off first and let her romp, calling her two or three times to return to me. She was figuring it out nicely, so I leashed her again and released Thor. Same thing...he romped around but returned to me the first time I called him. I let him go again and he ran off down the road....then stopped! His ears pricked up, his hackles rose. I could see this even though I was a quarter of a block away. I called him, my eyes searching for what caught his interest. I know there is a pack of feral cats that live in the area and thought he might have seen one of them, though his hackles don't lift for them usually, just his interest is piqued. But Thor didn't come, nor did he move....he just stood there.

Then I saw George coming down his steps. I watched as Thor tensed and called to George to 'get back in the house'. Unfortunately, I was too far away for him to hear me. I called Thor again, but he just stood. You have to know I was racing towards him by this time, dragging Freya along, as I knew...I KNEW...what was going to happen. Thor, ever since the first time he bit George for what he perceived as a threat to me, has hated George. Even walking past his house, Thor glances at it, his ears up, his hackles often up as well, even though no one is around.

Sure enough, George reached his driveway and Thor took off, circling George and lunging at his legs. George started squealing and screaming and hitting out at Thor with a bag he had in his hand. I told him "Just stand still, George, don't move" but let's face it, even if he had heard me, it would have been hard to stand still when a 100 lb. shepherd is nipping at your legs. I called Thor again, told him "Leave it! Come!" and he started back towards me. George turned towards the house but half way back to me, Thor turned and ran back again. Fortunately, George had gotten to a safe place under the house and with a few barks, Thor finally listened to me and came back. I leashed him at once and wondered ' what do I say to him? how do I correct his behavior? will he even understand what I'm telling him if I say bad dog or no biting or anything?'

Besides, I was shaking so badly I could only be grateful that I had him leashed by that time. I finally reached George's house and as he was climbing the stairs to the door, I called, "Are you okay?" When he said, "Thor bit me again and ripped my pants" I blanched. I am surprised my legs held me up. He pulled up his pant leg and blood was dripping down. Deja vu!

I took both dogs home, got in my truck, drove back to George's and piled him in to take him to the doctor's....again. Fortunately, this time it was just some scratches and one small puncture so they cleaned him up, put on some antibiotic salve, gave him a prescription for antibiotics and I took him to the pharmacy and then home. Naturally, they called AC and the vet to check up on Thor's shots. I will pay for the prescriptions and whatever his medicare doesn't cover, plus a new pair of pants and socks, but that does not solve the problem.

The doctor tried to make me feel better with a little joking comment; i.e. "You have to keep these two out of the same playground." I know he was trying to make me feel better but I don't.

Thor doesn't bite anyone else. I've had strange men all over the house during the replacement of my heating system, Kat (my daughter) has friends in and out of the house all the time, we meet other neighbors all the time when out for walks, but Thor only goes for George. I don't know what to do and I'm sooooooo frightened that AC will see him as a vicious dog and want to put him down. Just typing those words make tears gush. He's NOT vicious! Dang, Seamus attacked him and he REACTED, he was not PROACTIVE in that event.

What's wrong with Thor? What do I tell the AC when they get here? I don't want them to take him but I fear they will. Even the problems with Seamus dim compared to this dilemma.
 
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#27 ·
Quote:And please, I beg all of you not to repeat again and again that I should talk to a good trainer or a behaviorist. I don't know how many ways I can explain that the nearest trainer/behaviorist is well over 4 or 5 hours away from me, that I live on a pension, that it takes more than I can afford to buy gas just to drive to the vet's (70 miles away), which I've done 3 times this past month. I'm alone here, folks. You all are my best line of information. I have no one else to ask.
Just out of curiosity...

What happens to the dog if AC demands you to seek professional help through a qualified trainer/training facility? That is the only way you can keep him then?

We've had a couple of cases in my state where AC made the owners pay for aggression training.. This last case that came in was a 10 yr old gsd that got loose one time and bite someone.. So the owner opted to seek help instead of euthanizing his dog..
 
#28 ·
What a horrible experience! I'm so sorry for what you must be going through! And I hope it all turns out ok.

As the others have said, you must NOT let him off leash. Someone else might not be as kind as George. Or worse yet, Thor will bite and do some real damage. Imagine someone that looks like George carrying a baby that Thor determines is in trouble. You really mustn't take another chance. I hope you realize that.
 
#29 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Never off leash til you work this out...

And have you followed any of the many many many many many topics about training with an e-collar? Not as 'punishment' but more for TRAINING. It doesn't matter that he's only bitten George (twice). What is REALLY the issue is you do NOT have a reliable 'come' And without that you will always have concerns if your dog is off leash.

Lou Castle is on this site and has great info on his website....

http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm
 
#30 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Thanks for the kind words MaggieRoseLee. The link that you supplied will help the OP train her dog to a reliable recall using an Ecollar.

But even with that she needs to use care in letting the dog off leash. and even while on leash. If the dog goes around a blind corner (as around an outside corner of a house) the neighbor (or someone else) may be there and a bite will occur even though the dog has a reliable recall or is on leash.
 
#31 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Diane,

I'm not in a position to give advice about dog training. I just wanted to say that after the discord introduced into your home by trying to save Seamus, it's really terrible that you now are confronted with this unfortunate incident with Thor.

I certainly hope that AC is as understanding as your neighbor. If so, I'm sure you will identify a suitable modus vivendi with your dogs.

Mary Jane
 
#32 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Diane, in my opinion the most important thing you need to do now is to find out what the law is in your jurisdiction. And you need to see/read it yourself, not have some municipal person give you their interpretation of it. The law should have some sort of hearing process in it, legally it's called due process, so that AC cannot just take your dog and destroy him without a fair and impartial hearing. An animal control officer may try to get you to sign him over, but you may not be obligated to do so. You need to find out your rights before AC comes and then proceed from there.
 
#33 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

IMHO, even when strange men come over to your house, I would not have him out even then. Sounds like you will be lucky if you get to keep him but to take ANY kind of a chance in the future would be a mistake. Yes, you know he does not like George but what if he decides he does not like some other guy that comes to your house?
 
#34 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

If you are all through pummelling me (some of you extremely 'self-righteously'...like you've NEVER made an error in judgement either with dogs or people), I'd like to thank Chris Wild, jarn, Achielles CDX, blackbirdzach, Brightelf, Historian, ZeusGSD, Maedchen, JakodaCD OA , DianaM, Judykaye, JAPD, workingdawgs, Lynnemd, and all the others who have offered good advice with a touch of empathy/sympathy, especially MaggieRoseLee's link to Lou Castle's site. I spent the morning reading information re: e-collars (sorry, Lou, didn't know about you until Maggie's link but I found it all very helpful....wouldn't you like to take a vacation to the beaches of the east coast..and maybe 'play' with a few dogs while you're here? *grins*).

Assuming our AC is understanding and helpful, I will definitely purchase a muzzle and as soon as I can afford it, an e-collar as well. There is no doubt in my mind that Thor is NOT aggressive, nor is he a 'vicious dog'. He is bonded to me and I would not be surprised if he sees poor George as an ongoing threat to me, given the details surrounding the prior event. Additionally, Thor has been under a great bit of stress (and pain as well, let's not forget) since Seamus arrived and has been a bit edgier than normal...understandably so.

I have read the state laws about dogs. I hope it will not go to the point of hearings, etc. (George will not file any complaint) but the AC's know Thor and Freya (who came from their shelter) and I think they will be disturbed but willing to work with me if I am willing (and I am) to take some protective steps.

I appreciate the advice about training on a long line. I've never had to train any other dog that way but I can see the wisdom of doing so with Thor. So a muzzle, an e-collar and a long line it will be (I do have Flexi leashes 16 feet long which should do, according to LouCastle). If anyone wants to know the outcome of my meeting with the AC, just pm me and I'll bring you up to date.

And the time has come to work on rehoming Seamus (and NO, middleofnowhere, I don't mean Thor). Seamus, bless his heart, has been stress for all of us, including himself. He's not happy (although he's safer, better fed, and more loved than he has been in the past), Thor and Freya are not happy and I'm not happy. It is not a well balanced pack and I can't see it ever being so in my lifetime.

Thanks again for the good advice from some of you...I am still learning how to deal with my little pack of dogs. I am trying, truly I am. I know I make mistakes but I'm willing to learn...and so are my fur babies.
 
#35 ·
#36 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

I just wanted to mention that your county/municipality may have different laws than the state. In many, if not most states, local governments have the power to enact laws which are more stringent than the state law. My county, for example, has stricter laws than the IL statutes regarding dogs. Here, if a dog is off-leash in public and someone 'feels' that they are threatened by the dog, the dog can be declared dangerous.

Good luck, I really hope everything goes well for you.
 
#37 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

This is what I hope to hear from Diane:
AC control is giving Thor another chance.
George is mentally and physically doing OK.
She found a comfy-soft cotton clothesline and a shiny brass clip (cheap) to make a nice longline.
She also found a large fenced area there.
Seamus is doing wonderfully, and someone has the ideal home to welcome him into, after all Diane's hard work.
Diane has nabbed a couple training videos from her library's inter-library loan system.
Diane is taking a long, hot, scented soak in a wonderful lavender bubblebath, ordering a pizza, and is feeling much, much better with the ideas from the videos & a safe-yet-fun plan for Thor and Frey's continued training.
 
#38 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Originally Posted By: HatterasserThere is no doubt in my mind that Thor is NOT aggressive, nor is he a 'vicious dog'.
I am sure that George would think otherwise. You even described this latest incident as an unprovoked attack.

I am sorry that you didn’t like my advice. I feel very sorry you and the situation you are in. I can tell that you love your dogs very much.

You admit yourself that you do not know how to train your dogs. We can sit here all day and pretend like you are going to magically figure it out by talking to people on a message board or reading books but you aren’t. Thor’s situation is too serious to even try. If Thor escapes his meeting with Animal Control this time it will most likely be his last chance. Are you willing to leave his last chance to someone who is unskilled in dealing with problem dogs?

I am sorry if you feel like you deserve to be coddled, but that isn’t going to help you in the long run and it sure isn’t going to help Thor. For your sanity, Thor’s life, and the safety of everyone in your neighborhood get some professional help before it is too late. If you are unwilling or unable to get professional help then you I think you should re-home Thor. I am sorry if that hurts your feelings. Better your feelings then your neighbor’s leg.
 
#39 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

When we know better, we do better, and I hope this all works out for dog, owner, and neighbor. Good luck and NO OFF LEASH until this is straightend and trained out!


And remember this website is just like everything else on the internet, read it all, and take the advice that works for you and your situation (but always what I recommend
)
 
#40 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

It sounds like things will work out afterall. I know it can be difficult and stressfull when taking in unknown dogs. I hope Seamus finds a new home soon for all the rest of your sanities'.

Self education is the first step and you are getting there
Ebay is a wonderful sourse as is Amazon for some cheaper books if you can't get to a library. You really can't learn too many methods. Along with training books, make sure to get canine psychology books too. There are many out there. The more you can read the better, even if you don't agree with it all.

What is that cheesy but true saying? The more you know, the less you don't know... ? lol something like that.

Take a breath. I hope the AC visit goes/went well. Then take a nice long soak in the tub with a margarita!
 
#41 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Have you talked at any length with George? If you could have George ther when AC comes out. I think if he helps "down play" the incident and supports your new plan to keep the community safe then the AC should go lightly.

Afterall if George feels secure that you have a handle on the situation that should help.

I do not think the e collar is the answer. No off leash and a muzzle on walks would do it if I were George.

I read your saga on your rehab with Seamus. You are a STRONG STRONG person.

Good luck on Thursday. I will keep my fingers crossed for Thor and you.
 
#42 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Sounds like you are getting good advise about long lines, etc from others here. As for the flexi I would urge you to reconsider using one.

Flexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard. I have heard of them snapping and I heard of badly cut hands and legs from the lines when they are stretched out.

Better to try a strong type web long line so you can grab it if you have to. You can even make some extra loops on the line so you have a good hand hold on it.

I wish you well. I have never been in your situation and hope the outcome for Thor is good.

Being in contact and control of Thor and being alert at all times will be the key.
 
#44 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

just another thought about the latest "unprovoked" attack (since I don't know anything about the first one)-
If the handler is panicking and screaming at the neighbor to get back in his house, even a well trained dog might hear "help, save me from the attacker". That, and the dog probably sensed fear in the "attacker" (bitten before). The handler has to think about the message the dog is receiving, particularly while off leash. It may be too late for this dog to be trusted off leash, but he may have done fine if he only received firm, calm commands that he knew well.

Good luck with AC. I really hope you get another chance with your dog. I'll be the first to admit that I've learned some things about dog training the hard way, but have been very fortunate that my dog has never injured a person. Even when it seems I'm taking every precaution, and training/preparing for every situation, there's often more to be done. (adult rescues, with unknown history, can be a challenge)
 
#45 ·
I gotta agree with everyone else here. Even if you were able to reliably train Thor to come every single time you call him, he is still a dog with a bite history and you can't control the universe to make it safe from him. Therefore, you have to control him to make everyone else safe. Thor can never be off leash again unless he's in your own, securely fenced (i.e. 6 ft. high, opaque wood, double-latched gate) back yard. Quite frankly, my own dog is never outside without being on a long line. It's not that she's ever bitten anyone (okay, except for me when I put my hand in the middle of a fight to break it up), but she just thinks of the fence as a piece of agility equipment. A 50 ft long line keeps her safe and me sane.

Check out the threads on Rolo under Current Dog Affairs. That dog just had his euthanasia sentence reversed today -- and all he did was scratch the back of a woman's legs and scare the bejeezus out of her. He came back the minute he was called, too.

As for training advice on the cheap, certainly you can buy some of Patricia McConnell's or Trish King's or Karen Pryor's materials. After all, look at the money you would save on patching up neighbors and making amends....
 
#46 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Quote: Flexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard. I have heard of them snapping and I heard of badly cut hands and legs from the lines when they are stretched out.
Agree here. Flexis are useless and dangerous for big dogs. They are not an acceptable substitute for a good long line. I have several long lines and use different ones depending on what I'm doing. My favorite one for making certain I have absolute control, even if the dog is running full tilt, I got from myrope.com. It's marine-grade line -- nice and soft in your hands -- and comes in a choice of colors, too!
 
#47 ·
Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!

Yes, no flexis. Flexis also teach your dog to pull to get distance between itself and you. They are used with very well trained dogs just fine, but I think you need a long line. They are strong, they better simulate off leash experiences, and they're easy to get a handle on.

When things calm down, how about getting some positive experiences going between your neighbor and Thor? Get a really short traffic lead, like 3' long or less, have Thor on the strongest collar possible, maybe even double-up (I've been known to keep a long line on the buckle while working with the prong and a regular leash), give your neighbor some of the treats that Thor absolutely loves (or if he loves balls, a can of tennis balls or whatever), and see if your neighbor will toss treats or toys to him. Keep your distance, but try to be relaxed. Maybe sit in lawn chairs about 10 or 15 feet apart as that helps to ease tension. Nothing may happen at first, but try to do this on a regular basis. If Thor won't accept treats or toys from your neighbor, maybe you and your neighbor can throw balls to each other. Sounds funny but if Thor sees the two of you playing, maybe he'll ease up and eventually want to join in. If your neighbor is willing to take part, this could make all the difference in the world; if Thor learns that your neighbor always has treats and toys, the relationship could do a complete 180. I wouldn't push any closeness or even petting, but if Thor is happy to see him from a distance, that would go a looooong way to resolving the problem.

One thing that is on my mind, though- if Thor exhibits NO aggressive behavior whatsoever to anyone but the neighbor, what did the neighbor do to deserve being the target of Thor's only aggression?
Maybe nothing, but sometimes you just never know.
 
#48 ·
Originally Posted By: wrennyShe knows what she did wrong. Stop making it any worse. You are probably making her cry everytime she reads this by belittling her even after she admitted she made a very horrible mistake.

Start helping her and stop insulting her.

Insulting her? This is not just one "very horrible mistake" it is at least two - I would say three that are apparent in recent posts. To me it is clear that neither dog is being done a favor. The dogs unsettled at home, the neighbor is endangered. And it is insulting to suggest that both dogs need a different environment? I'm advocating for the dogs here. If someone creates chaos and causes harm to a third party (George in this case) they need to be able to take the heat. These actions may well have cost a dog his life. I see no purpose in sugar-coating this issue. If we sugar coat this I can predict how it will end. It will end with another incident where someone is hurt, the OP back here feeling sad because of the harm to her dog. I am for playing the music now and advocating that the dogs be rehomed to someone that can afford to take them to training.
 
#49 ·
Rehoming a dog with this kind of bite history may be very difficult so the main burden is on the owner. I think that he can be kept safe with very careful management. I agree with others that he should NEVER be off leash (except in a safe, fenced area with no strangers) and he should be under total control on a short leash and even a muzzle around people outside the family for safety. Thor was obviously thinking that he was doing his job by protecting the owner from a perceived danger. With time he may declare other individuals as threats in his mind and one has to watch out for that. Also, even if he is off-leash on the beach, he could decide to take off and "check-out" George. He can probably find his way back home from places he is walked to with ease. Also people may show up suddenly.
Since we cannot control the environment we have to control the dog.
He may also one day inflict more serious damage.
I wish you good luck with AC tomorrow and hope that Thor and you will
get another chance.
 
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