Can fear aggression be overcome??

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted By: bearlasmomnot to step on any toes here but have you ever felt the charge from an ecollar?

Yes, and so have all my clients and so have most of the people who attend my seminars. I also test my collars every day, by feeling the stim, before I put them on the dogs.

Originally Posted By: bearlasmomthey give a heck of a jolt.

I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.

Originally Posted By: bearlasmomi had considered using one on bearla to train her and divert her with her fear aggression. That is until my vet let me feel it. she advised against them and said it actually makes fear aggression worse.

It's obvious that your vet is NOT the person to consult as to whether or not to use an Ecollar. I suggest that vets stick to medical conditions, few of them know ANYTHING about training a dog and fewer still know anything about Ecollars.

I've demonstrated with my two success stories that an Ecollar CAN be used to treat fear-aggression. It has to be used properly, but that's amazingly easy to do.

I have no doubt bearlasmom that used as you probably used it you easily could have made the problem worse. But it's a mistake to assume that's the only way that the tool can be used.

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted By: Susan FWhen someone will strap a shock collar on their child and give me the controller, THEN I will believe them that "they don't really hurt."

I'd not hand you the transmitter as it's obvious that you'd crank it up to prove a (nonexistent) point. There's no reason to do this when using the Ecollar to train a dog. I suggest that you red my articles instead of assuming how an Ecollar can be used.

I've put Ecollars on hundreds of children and stimmed them. Their response? They giggle!

Originally Posted By: Susan FUntil then, there is no shock collars (or pinch or choke collars, either) in my house.

I've heard this from many people, only to have them later, call and ask for help with an Ecollar with a new (difficult) dog.

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted By: LucinaWe just had this discussion on another forum. "negative" means taking something away, while "positive" means adding something. "Reinforcement" means encouraging a behavior while "punishment" means discouraging a behavior. So when I fold my arms and put my back to Lucy if she jumps that's really negative punishment, (because I'm removing attention) and an e-collar would be positive punishment (adding a shock to discourage a behavior)
People cringe when I tell then my horses are primarily negative reinforcement learners (like all horses, truth be told). They think I beat them- but all it means is I apply the pressure, for example my right leg behind the girth, until they move their hind end away and then I remove the pressure, thus reinforcing the action.

Good succinct explanation of the terms Lucina. Just one thing. The Ecollar (used as I do, on the continuous setting) is positive punishment when the button is pressed. And negative reinforcement when the button is released. It's exactly as you describe in your last paragraph with "pressure" on the horse. You apply pressure with the Ecollar and them remove it to reinforce the behavior.

[towtrip]

Quote: I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.

Hmmmm.... why even have a setting that permits the dog to be given such a shock. How many people do you think actually keep the device on the "tickle" setting? The fact of the matter is that these devices are designed and intended to cause pain to the dog. The fact that some people may take a more humane approach does not make them more useful or advisable.

Any dolt with a credit card can buy one of these things and slap it on their puppy. They think that "maximum" is the best and they end up having neurotic, frightened, confused, untrusting dogs.

I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar." One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....

[jarn]

any training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.

e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.

[towtrip]

Originally Posted By: jarnany training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.

e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.

Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated.

[jarn]

i'm sorry, i just don't understand why physical abuse would create mental problems in one instance, and not the other. are you saying a dog abused w/a training tool other than an e-collar would only have physical issues, not mental ones? i'm just trying to understand this.

[LouCastle]

Susan I asked you to read some articles and it's seems that you haven't bothered to take that advice. May I ask your experience with Ecollars? Ever felt the stim from one where you first perceive it? That's where all my basic work is done. Ever seen one used as I advocate? Or is all your experience in only seeing it used to punish unwanted behavior?

Earlier I wrote,

Quote: I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.

Originally Posted By: Susan F Hmmmm.... why even have a setting that permits the dog to be given such a shock.

When first starting to work with a dog you find his "working level of stim." That's the level he first feels when he's not distracted, or, when he's least distracted in a given environment. But later on, when he IS distracted, he'll not feel that level of stim at all. When that occurs, one turns the stim level up until it IS felt. But it's still, in his distracted state, where he first feels it.

Depending on the dog's balance and levels of drives, Ecollars need to offer various levels of stim. You felt a high level of stim when you were at rest, so naturally it was "quite a jolt," as you described it. But if that level was applied when you were highly distracted, you probably would not have felt it at all.

Originally Posted By: Susan F How many people do you think actually keep the device on the "tickle" setting?

Anyone who is following my methods. There's no reason to do otherwise. It hinders the training and so, is counterproductive.

Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact of the matter is that these devices are designed and intended to cause pain to the dog.

No you're quite wrong Susan. The earliest models were invented to cause pain. They were designed to stop hunting dogs from chasing deer. They were designed to put the dog into avoidance, to have him fear the deer to get the chasing to stop. But modern versions can be used to teach with and so they're designed with many levels so that the level that the dog first feels can be used.

Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact that some people may take a more humane approach does not make them more useful or advisable.

It's EXACTLY that fact that coupled with the more modern design that makes them BOTH "useful" AND "advisable!"

Originally Posted By: Susan F Any dolt with a credit card can buy one of these things and slap it on their puppy.

Any dolt with a credit card can buy ANY training tool and slap it on their puppy. Many of them can cause serious injury, even death. An Ecollar can cause neither. It's probably the safest tool extant used in dog training. It can cause pain if used at too high a level but it CAN NOT cause any injury.

ANY tool can be misused. ANY tool can be abused. No tool is idiot-proof to the right idiot.

Originally Posted By: Susan F They think that "maximum" is the best and they end up having neurotic, frightened, confused, untrusting dogs.

Or they can read my articles and end up with a happy dog that can be trusted off leash at great distances. And those who use Ecollars always have an insurance policy. If the dog disregards a command, we're the only ones who have another chance to enforce it.

The proper response here is EDUCATION.

Originally Posted By: Susan F I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar."

I've trained a few dogs and HAVE NEVER HAD ONE that didn't respond to the Ecollar. I'll suggest that the person using the tool in your case simply didn't know how to use it. If that were to happen with a choke chain or a pinch collar, tools FAR MORE LIKLELY to be used, if only because of the cost factor, serious injury, even death might result. The dog may not make it to the shelter.

Originally Posted By: Susan F One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....

This is NOT TRUE!!!!! No modern Ecollar has the power to cause any burns on a dog's neck. The ONLY injury that can result is some sores from either too loose or too tight a collar strap. That causes friction and/or moist eczema that can cause irritation that if ignored (more evidence that the person didn't know what they were doing) can get infected.

But it's IMPOSSIBLE for a modern Ecollar to cause burns.

To give you some idea of the relative levels of some familiar devices compared to the Ecollar: An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules. An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers, emits 0.914 joules, almost 183,000 times more powerful. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, 640,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator emits 360 Joules, 72,000,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator may cause some first degree burns, "redness," but those are 72 MILLION TIMES more powerful than an Ecollar.

It's best if, in these conversations we stick to facts, not myths or misconceptions.

[LouCastle]

Earlier Jarn wrote,

Quote:any training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.

e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.

Originally Posted By: Susan F Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated.

Medical issues often are beyond being fixed. It's easy for a dog to develop an infection from an imbedded collar of any kind. Those can cause death. No Ecollar has ever been responsible for the death of a dog.

That's not even mentioning the injuries that can result from other tools. The Ecollar can't cause any of those. MANY of them can't be "permanently fixed," such as injuries to trachea and cervical vertebrae AND they can just as easily as the Ecollar cause "emotional and behavioral damage."

[DianaM]

Quote:I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar." One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....

ANY tool can be misused. The e-collar just happens to be very easy to misuse. I think it's borderline abusive when people put buckle collars on their dog and let them pull like sled dogs on crack, to the point where they're choking and coughing and sputtering. That can't be good. Someone even posted here that some doggie day care person was using haltis as muzzles. Oops. Prongs can be misused, chokes can be really misused, anything in the wrong hands can be misused.

The person who burned holes in their dog's neck should be barred from owning anything that qualifies as living. I guess some people just think that pushing the button on the e-collar makes a dog instantly sit. Push it a different way, it'll down. Push it five times in a row on setting 63, it'll do your laundry. Don't blame the tool when the problem clearly exists with the user. Same with guns. Quit blaming the inanimate object and blame the darn buffoons who'd abuse anything they'd get their hands on, intentionally or because they enjoy their ignorance too much to learn.