I have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.
Originally Posted By: CastlemaidMy understanding on how the ecollar is used by Lou, and used to overcome fear agression, is that the collar is used to reward the dog for appropriate behaviour when faced with the object of its fears (like other dogs, for example).
I had Ilsa at the vet yesterday. I think we are going to go over a few times more before her surgery and have other people there handle her. I want her comfortable that those people can be her leaders, too. I also want her to see the kennels. I am hoping her across the way neighbor will be a calf (that happens there).
ANYWAY! She has issues with other dogs. That is exactly what I did using praise and small treats. We played the look game where she looked at me (even as I moved around-so I got a little of her prey drive going directed at me and then she was actually having some fun), we did obedience and she got all sorts of positives straight from me, my body language, my hands, my words.
Instead of focusing on the "evil" Golden (who got a cookie from me because she was so sweet) or that "monster" Boston Terrier (who was well aware that Ilsa thought of her as the enemy and didn't make eye contact with her at all) like she could have, she had a good time and totally forgot they were there.
If you don't mind making a silly out of yourself sometimes, you can really do amazing things with hard dogs. The lady with the Boston was like WOW-those dogs (I had Mariele with me too) are SO good. And I
because both my girls have issues-and still do-but I am very happy with the methods I have employed in dealing with them.
Jean, I hope that the next time I go to the vet my dogs will act just like yours! I have to go soon for vacc. and heartworm check so I will follow your lead! Thanks for sharing
Originally Posted By: Chris08"Sue i have to agree with you here. i did try the ecollar at a level set for what would be used on Bearla and it hurt!"
Geez!! That's bordering on non-sequitur! I would venture to say that the tug you used when passing the other dogs at the vets would likely hurt most humans.
Are you saying that you fitted Bearla with an ecollar and the method didn't work or just that you subjected yourself to the stim that you thought would be Bearla's level?
I thoroughly understand the emotion of people who have furkids. I'm glad your method worked. How long did it take? Do you trust her to do it every time?
i have not, nor would i ever use a ecollar on bearla. i would never trust her to do that all the time though. she went back again today, and she handled it the same way. i had tried every other form except ecollar up to now. i have been using jan fennels training for a while and decided to take Wisc. tigers suggestion to take her in to get treats etc. Well, it looks like Tiger knows the best, sometimes i guess we have to listen to the pros. according to my vet, she claims that those who rely on ecollars constantly (behaviorists), are power hungry and controllists. the behavorist i had used also felt the same way. another method i was using was czar malones.
Originally Posted By: bearlasmomaccording to my vet, she claims that those who rely on ecollars constantly (behaviorists), are power hungry and controllists. the behavorist i had used also felt the same way.
Vets are usually a very poor source for dog training information. Training a dog is not part of their medical education. They usually know less about dog training than the average pet dog owner. A couple of my Ecollar clients are vets. They now refer their patients whose dogs are out of control to me. Neither of them knew the first thing about training a dog until I taught them.
But they wear white coats and probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Originally Posted By: bearlasmomanother method i was using was czar malones.
Most veterinarians that we deal with are becoming very enlightened in dog training and behavior. Some vet schools, like Purdue University and the University of Illinois, are implementing courses of study in behavior. That has helped tremendously. Of course, you need to be working with one of the younger, more educated, veterinarians.
The Veterinary College of the University of Illinois hosted a dog (and cat) behavioral seminar last summer. They had Trish King, Patricia McConnell and Wayne Hunthausen as their speakers -- a real all-star, top-shelf line up. A friend and I went and it was fabulous! Two days of instruction and information, including break-out sessions on some more intense topics. Most of the audience was comprised of veterinarians (young 'uns) and vet techs, which was very encouraging to see.
Originally Posted By: Susan FMost veterinarians that we deal with are becoming very enlightened in dog training and behavior. Some vet schools, like Purdue University and the University of Illinois, are implementing courses of study in behavior.
Knowing about behavior is GREAT. But it's of little help when training a real, live dog. It enables one to discuss theory with great alacrity, but teaching a dog to recall is quite something else.
Originally Posted By: Susan FThat has helped tremendously. Of course, you need to be working with one of the younger, more educated, veterinarians.
If you want to talk theory then talking to a "younger, more educated vet" may be an interesting way to pass some time. But most people are more interested in getting real information, not theory, about training their dog If you want to train your dog, a vet is a poor place to get information.
Originally Posted By: Susan FThe Veterinary College of the University of Illinois hosted a dog (and cat) behavioral seminar last summer. They had Trish King, Patricia McConnell and Wayne Hunthausen as their speakers -- a real all-star, top-shelf line up.
I've been invited to talk to a local vet university. There's not enough time so I don't have any illusions of making them into trainers. They'll learn a few things but that's about it. And I wonder, were other viewpoints presented or just the politically correct ones? Were there any balanced trainers invited?
Originally Posted By: Susan FA friend and I went and it was fabulous! Two days of instruction and information, including break-out sessions on some more intense topics. Most of the audience was comprised of veterinarians (young 'uns) and vet techs, which was very encouraging to see.
Sounds like this was a bit more intense than what I've been invited to do but still, it's not going to give them anywhere near the expertise of the trainer. If you need medical advice the vet is the "go to person." If you want dog training advice, not so much.
Not all trainers are created equal, either. There is no required education or experience, no governing body, no license or other requirements. People with little to no knowledge about dog behavior and with a vague notion that they have some "dog experience" can hang out a shingle and call themselves a trainer.
Trish King is the Director of Training at Marin Humane Society. She has trained thousands of dogs, written several books, has several fabulous videos of her seminars and training sessions, and is very highly regarded.
Patricia McConnell has a PhD in animal behavior and psychology, has extensive experience in training with clients and her own top-performing herding dogs, has published extensively and is a highly sought-after speaker.
Wayne Hunthausen is a veterinarian with a good, working knowledge of the physiology and neurology behind dog behavior. He is published and an excellent speaker.
I prefer to follow the advice of people with credentials that are independently certifiable beyond their own pronouncements.
Originally Posted By: Susan FNot all trainers are created equal, either. There is no required education or experience, no governing body, no license or other requirements. People with little to no knowledge about dog behavior and with a vague notion that they have some "dog experience" can hang out a shingle and call themselves a trainer.
This has always been a problem in dog training. I know of people who have gone to a class as short as three weeks and then been "certified" by the person who put on the class as "specialists." They then go out and set up a business training dogs. In the case that I’m thinking of, the person giving the class had little experience in training dogs himself.
You'd think that with contractors, plumbers and electricians having to be certified by an "official agency" that there'd be something for people who work with live animals. But there isn't. I'm not so sure that government regulation is the best response though. I'm one of those that believe that less government is better.
Originally Posted By: Susan FI prefer to follow the advice of people with credentials that are independently certifiable beyond their own pronouncements.
Often the best way to do things. But not always. Having credentials often means nothing. As with the "specialist" anointment that I mentioned earlier. Having a title may also mean nothing. It may be that the person has been to dozens of classes and has passed dozens of certifications but has never trained a single dog!
In some areas of dog training there aren't any "certifications" available. There aren't any competitions that really measure what those folks do, so looking at awards, certifications or titles means nothing. What counts is being able to get dogs to do their work.
Even looking at the dogs that belong to the person under examination may tell nothing. Many people have purchased already trained dogs and are passing them off as if they'd done the training.
I think that the ONLY real test of the quality of someone's training is how well the dogs of their clients respond. Even if a person has trained their own dog and that dog is excellent, it doesn’t mean that they can train YOUR dog. It's how YOUR dog responds to what that trainer does that's important. And I think that's the MOST important thing.
At my seminars I invite all comers. No matter what your dog's issue is, bring him and we'll work on it. I don't pre-screen any of the dogs as some seminar givers do; any breed, any age, any issue.
Are you saying that Patricia McConnell and Trish King pre-screen dogs for their seminars or as their clients? That is absolutely not true. When you're working with an open-intake shelter, it's impossible to pre-screen your clients.
You are obviously not familiar with any of their work.
Originally Posted By: Susan FAre you saying that Patricia McConnell and Trish King pre-screen dogs for their seminars or as their clients? That is absolutely not true. When you're working with an open-intake shelter, it's impossible to pre-screen your clients.
Susan if you can find anyplace in my post that I said ANYTHING AT ALL about ANY of the people that you mentioned, please show it to us. My comments were general.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
Originally Posted By: Susan FYou are obviously not familiar with any of their work.
You're right. I've never heard of any of them. (Of course they've probably never heard of me either, lol). So why would I comment on what they do?
It seems that you're taking things a bit too personally. I'd suggest that in the future you take such off-topic comments to PM's rather than clutter up the thread with them.
Then how can you possibly make the statement that you tried the setting that would be used on Bearla and it hurt you?
Ecollar is a training method, no more, no less. To attach generally considered undesirable personality traits to those who choose to use it is ridiculous IMO. Unfortunately, it's often used when one's logic is challenged and found lacking.
And this from one who used the "Czar Malones" method whom some may say is perhaps the King of the power hungry and controllists regarding dogs?
I find this thread really interesting and hope that the moderators don’t remove any of it. It’s good to hear the opposing sides of any argument, especially when they are backed up with facts and not purely emotions.
I’ve read Lou Castle’s website and was anything but disappointed. I, too, would like to hear what on his website can disappoint anyone. I am a big advocate of motivational training, and if you really read the contents of the site, you would see that his methods are just that. In fact, several times he notes that the bond between human and dog is enormously important. Did you miss the parts of about how important plain old play time with your dog is to that bond?
To those posters that don’t advocate e-collars – or for that matter training collars of any type as noted numerous times in the posts above – what training have you imposed on your dogs? Have they been titled? Do they work in the police/tactical environment? Do they do search and rescue? To what level has their training been taken?
Or perhaps we could continue to help onyx'girl and start a new thread with that question.
We are talking about a dog with what is probably a temperament issue who just needs to get through the day. THAT is going to be her title, her accomplishment, as that dog heads down the road toward the bridge, she will be able to say that her dog was able to live happily and without harming another being. That is something, for a pet owner with a dog like that, that is as huge as anything you could think of. With the help of her new trainer, and support here, I think she's going to earn that badge of honor!
Is there another Onyx update, Onyx'sGirl? I am interested to hear how things are going with the trainer, if you guys try anything new, and how it works out-- how Onyx responds. I really look forward to hearing the positive updates as she begins to move towards being a safer dog and a happier, more settled dog-- regardless of what is happening around her!
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=615343&page=2#Post615343
This is an update from Saturday. Onyx did very well with other dogs and her breeder, who I can't imagine she remembers)
I have been working on the NILIF and positive correction. She has been better with clover, instead of crating her, I hold her face, make her look at me in the eyes and tell her to be nice to clover. We haven't had any more issues since Friday. I haven't gone back to the trainer. Nor has she contacted me. I want to go to classes there once I get Onyx relaxed in group settings. She has a tracking class that I think Onyx would enjoy.
My breeder(Renae) gave me some suggestions(E-collar may be a possiblity), and because she does know Onyx' temperament, thought some of the more gentler ways of handling things may not work for her. Onyx is a dominant girl in most situations. One thing that was interesting when Renae came over~we were trying to get pictures of Onyx stacked, so she could have that pose, and Onyx tucked tail and got scared when Renae handled her. So stacking was a no go. There was alot going on, with four GSD's running around, though! I will try again with my daughter behind the camera.
In the past week, Onyx has really been a good girl with people coming over(teenage boys). I give the dogs treats when people arrive, so they will focus on me and not bark, bark, bark. Slow, steady baby steps...BTW I think this thread is very interesting as well, it is good to hear many opinions on this and the op's have way more experience than I do.
Yeaaaaah Onyx!! It sounds like so much is happening, adjusting to a new way of behaving around Clover, learning to respect you with more of the NILIF, and so much she is learning with training... I am proud of you two!
Honestly, I would contact your trainer. Possible controversial statement here: the breeder bred this dog...I am not so sure I'd be following her advice so much. Dominant or not, using positive, relationship based methods will get you much farther than harsher methods of any kind. A lot of people will poo-poo the more positive stuff (and that doesn't mean no corrections ever) but to take just one of my dogs, at 15 Kramer has not bitten anyone other than vets (and I know why it happened-always when I was not with him) and that's saying something. Dominant and fear aggressive but force did not help him. Teaching him what I wanted and giving him skills and confidence did.
Taking confidence away from a dog and making them think they have nothing to add to the team just reinforces their fears.
Jean, what do you mean about the breeder bred this dog...?
I have been in contact thru e-mail with her for Onyx' whole life, sharing most all of her experiences. This is why I stated she knows her temperament.
I will stay with the positive training methods and go slowly as I said. Renae also is a trainer(horse, too, that is what she does for a living), but because she is hour 1/2 away, it doesn't work for us to get together. I am just giving Onyx time to re-enforce her confidence. She just needs to know that I am the one in control! I do have to go to the vet in the next month for heart-worm and vaccs. so hopefully we have a better experience there. In the meantime, I will take her there for a short visit, it is a thirty mile round-trip or I would do it more often~now that gas is $3.45 a gal.(
It sounds like you like your breeder-that's great.
If you think of people like llctzh (I spelled that wrong-sorry) or Chris Wild and how closely they evaluate their dogs and their breeding dogs even more so-and reading about their puppies, you are seeing that they are breeding very strong dogs with good temperament and that people listen to what they say.
I was just making an assumption (shame on me) that she had not maybe worked the parents of your dog to know them well enough, to push them to see if they exhibited possible faults in temperament that might get passed along.
So then if you follow my logic, I would look at the trainer you went to and follow more her recommendations (because I believe she may be more the type to work her dogs). But this could be faulty logic if your breeder is titling her dogs! Sorry! I could be very wrong here-I apologize.
Regardless, to teach a dog you are in charge you can just use NILIF. jarn has a good thread about an aggressive dog she has and is leaving with her brother.
Yes my breeder has Miyah(mom) working with her 13 yr. daughter in 4-H. She has done very well in this particular area. She doesn't do the conformation AKC show route, but does 4-H, Miyah has her CGC and was first place in agility for a novice at the fair in '06 and was the only GSD competing(mostly border collies). Miyah is also a working herding dog on a horse and cattle farm. Renae prefers to use a chain throw for calling off the dogs, verses E-collar when they are being trained for herding. She is a knowledgeable dog trainer, but doesn't have the facility or kennel set-up that the one I went to here has-that place is heaven in my opinion!!
I have been reading Jarn's threads on Teegan with interest as Onyx also seems to be a confident dog most of the time, tail high and first in line.
Glad things with Onyx are going well. I think NILIF is the way to go as well as to continue with the clicker training. I am rereading "Click to Calm" and had forgotten how good it is! Rafi is having issues with other dogs--he bullies them, especially if they are submissive and he's getting possessive of toys if another dog is interested. So I'm starting him on the Click to Calm stuff.
Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
My breeder(Renae) gave me some suggestions(E-collar may be a possiblity), and because she does know Onyx' temperament, thought some of the more gentler ways of handling things may not work for her. Onyx is a dominant girl in most situations. One thing that was interesting when Renae came over~we were trying to get pictures of Onyx stacked, so she could have that pose, and Onyx tucked tail and got scared when Renae handled her. So stacking was a no go. There was alot going on, with four GSD's running around, though! I will try again with my daughter behind the camera.
In the past week, Onyx has really been a good girl with people coming over(teenage boys). I give the dogs treats when people arrive, so they will focus on me and not bark, bark, bark.
Perhaps, though truth be told "dominant" and "fear aggressive" rarely come in the same package, since one trait that makes for a dominant personality is a high level of self confidence.. something that a fear aggressive dog is lacking, or else it wouldn't be fear aggressive in the first place.
Either way, since this is about how to deal with fear aggression, whether or not Onyx is truly dominant is a moot point. Frankly, I would seriously question the actual knowledge and experience of anyone who viewed fear behavior as dominance, or advised you to deal with her dominance issues. I don't care if it's the breeder, a trainer with a stack of credentials, or someone who has mind-melded with the dog. You need to deal with the fear aggression, and the approach for that needs to be completely different.
The absolute WORST approach to deal with fear aggression is force training. All this does is prove to the dog that yes, indeed, they do have cause to worry and be afraid because sure enough, something bad *will* happen.
Jumping from one trainer to another, or from one person's advice to another, is just going to cause more frustration and confusion and isn't going to solve the problem. You need to pick one trainer and one program and stick with it for a while. Of those you've mentioned you've worked with, I'd stick with Taking the Lead. Julie and the people who work with her, like Kari, are experienced, knowlegeable dog people, who also have a lot of experience with GSDs in particular, and they truly care about the welfare of the dogs and helping you through this situation.
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