German Shepherds Forum banner

Can fear aggression be overcome??

33K views 142 replies 35 participants last post by  BleuHaus 
#1 ·
I have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.
 
#52 ·
Originally Posted By: onyx'girlUpdate: Well, I went there this Sat. for a private lesson, and Julie was great in helping me w/ Onyx. She even saw first hand her level of aggression. We had been there an hour or so, Julie had ignored her for the first ten min's or so(talking about her history), then she gave treats when Onyx finally gave her a sniff, and then waiting for eye contact eventually. I then let Onyx wander the area on a 4 ft leash, while we talked. A construction guy came in the back door to use the bathroom, and Onyx was about twenty feet from me. Well, she charged the guy, barking and growling, and Julie told him to turn around. I grabbed Onyx as fast as I could, but she was already to him...She didn't bite, so that was good, as she has never bitten. Immediately after that, Julie told me to walk her to the other side of the room and see if she would take a treat from me, she wouldn't. So her anxiety was really ramped up from that incident. Julie suggested "stuff the dog" meaning give treat(giving kibble, or very small pieces) for everything Onyx does positively. And to get her out of any situation that gives her a feeling of fear. Baby steps. She also suggested no group training, as it will push her beyond her limits at this time. Slow socializing, from the fringe, and not to take her in pet shops, go in the parking lot, treat, and more treat , back in the car....
She also told me that the gentle leader collar should be high up on the neck near the "crinkles" of the ear as there are calming nerve endings, pressure points there. It helps to calm the dog when they are feeling the pressure of the collar. Onyx never pulled, she was great on the collar. Even outside with the dogs in the breeding facility barking, she was very easy to handle. I will work on the suggestions she gave me and try to read as much as possible( If I can get away from this site long enough:)) The past couple of days, though Onyx keeps going after my old girl Clover, and starting fights. I discussed this w/ Julie as well, so another thing that we have to work on...
Great update!

I second baby steps. I used to sit in playground parking lots, in my car, feeding Kramer hot dogs...waiting to get arrested
to work on his kid aggression. That wasn't his fear aggression-he has/had that too.

All that hard work over time (and many other steps) worked when a kid unexpectedly gave him a TIGHT hug a few years ago and he only growled. A lot of people would be disappointed if their dog growled, I was happy that kid walked away and was so proud of my boy!

Systematic desensitization is a good phrase to google for you onyx'girl!
 
#53 ·
I am sooooooooooooo proud of you and Onxy!!!!!! Ok, so I have no wonderful advice yet... but I am cheering you two on!! Onyx has such a wonderful owner to find a great trainer for her and work so hard with her on her road to healing.
You two are going to be such a strong team!
 
#54 ·
Thanks Jean & Patti for the support! I can't imaging having a boring dog to work with after dealing with Onyx, and she is challenging me to really learn so much about the dog pyche
 
#56 ·
Originally Posted By: Susan F
Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated. [/quote]

YEP a collapsed trachea from a miss used choke collar is a permanent fix...if you don't get to the vet fast enough your dog is dead...pretty permanent.
with ANY training device it has to be used correctly to work.
you get all kinds of idiots that don't read or listen to the correct way to use things and that's were your going to run into problems.
Those citronella collars...I hate those because when the dog gets the correction spray the citronella is still there burning him even after he has stopped barking. the punishment goes on and on and on.
 
#58 ·
Quote: YEP a collapsed trachea from a miss used choke collar is a permanent fix...if you don't get to the vet fast enough your dog is dead...pretty permanent.
I agree. My prior comment about "imbedded" collars, not choke collars. Imbedded collars are the result of neglect, not abuse. In fact, they're probably the opposite of abuse because the dog simply doesn't have enough human contact for them to notice that the dog's skin is growing around the collar.

Imbedded collars can be surgically removed and the dog can heal from it.

If you read earlier ... I don't condone choke chains or pinch collars, either. I don't believe in the "no pain, no gain" theory of dog training. I've never had to go there with any of my dogs. Just as Lou continues to advocate FOR shock collars, I will continue to advocate AGAINST them. There are just as many resources that are educational in training dogs without shock collars, choke chains or pinch collars as Lou's own web site that advocates for them.

If the whole argument is that they are "safe as long as you read Lou's web site," then that can be said about any training device. They are all safe, as long as the user takes the time to become educated about the use and has the mindset that they don't want to hurt their dog. The fact of the matter is that people buy shock collars and use them without reading any of the instructions because they're lazy and are looking for the quickest way to get compliance -- not the most effective, safe or humane way.

How many times have you seen someone walking their dog on a choke chain that was put on improperly so that it won't release? Or seen a dog pulling "like a sled dog on crack" with a pinch collar?

The bottom line fact is that it is much more difficult to inflict pain to a dog using a standard buckle or martingale collar -- even with an ignorant, uneducated user -- than it is with a shock collar. (Lou also makes the assumption that everyone is out buying the newest, top-of-the-line models, when there are a lot of these things floating around on the secondary market -- and, yes, they can burn holes in a dog's neck.)

I wholeheartedly agree that the goal is to have pet owners educated in training their dogs. Too many of them, however, don't use these devices as training aids, they use them as crutches and a replacement for training.
 
#59 ·
Originally Posted By: Susan FImbedded collars can be surgically removed and the dog can heal from it.
They can also kill through suffocation or infection. Dogs don't heal from that.

Originally Posted By: Susan F If you read earlier ... I don't condone choke chains or pinch collars, either. I don't believe in the "no pain, no gain" theory of dog training.
There's nothing that says that either tool must cause pain for training to occur.

Originally Posted By: Susan F I've never had to go there with any of my dogs. Just as Lou continues to advocate FOR shock collars, I will continue to advocate AGAINST them.
That's fine but I'd ask you to be honest in this. Many people, not saying that you've done this, are not capable of it. If you don't want to use Ecollars, that's fine with me.

Originally Posted By: Susan FThe fact of the matter is that people buy shock collars and use them without reading any of the instructions because they're lazy and are looking for the quickest way to get compliance -- not the most effective, safe or humane way.
The same thing can be said of ANY training tool, including treats, clickers and any other of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods."

Originally Posted By: Susan F How many times have you seen someone walking their dog on a choke chain that was put on improperly so that it won't release? Or seen a dog pulling "like a sled dog on crack" with a pinch collar?
I'm sorry but I don't see what this has to do with this topic. But since you asked: how many times have we seen grossly overweight dogs because they've been trained with treats and the owner has not cut back on the dog's food to compensate for it?

Originally Posted By: Susan F The bottom line fact is that it is much more difficult to inflict pain to a dog using a standard buckle or martingale collar -- even with an ignorant, uneducated user -- than it is with a shock collar.
I disagree. With either of those collars anytime the dog pulls against it ALL the pressure is put against the front of the dog's throat where all the delicate structures in the neck reside. A dog hitting the end of the leash can damage himself. No Ecollar can cause any physical injury except the minor sores that have already been discussed.

As far as inflicting pain, no intelligent reasonable dog owner wants to do that. and it's easy not to, don't turn it up to that level.

Originally Posted By: Susan F (Lou also makes the assumption that everyone is out buying the newest, top-of-the-line models, when there are a lot of these things floating around on the secondary market -- and, yes, they can burn holes in a dog's neck.)
I'm sorry but this is not true. NO ECOLLAR BEING MADE TODAY CAN CAUSE BURNS. If you disagree, show us some proof. Cheap collars become unreliable, that means they don't always give a stim when the button is pressed; but none of them can cause burns. Please stop telling this lie.

Originally Posted By: Susan F I wholeheartedly agree that the goal is to have pet owners educated in training their dogs. Too many of them, however, don't use these devices as training aids, they use them as crutches and a replacement for training.
Many people NEVER get to the "trained level" with their tool of choice. How often do we see people who must have their clicker in-hand for their dog to obey? How many MUST have a treat or Fluffy just won't sit? How many can't recall their dog unless they have their toy in their hand and are waving it like mad?

Pretending that the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" are exempt from these problems is disingenuous at best.
 
#61 ·
i'm using mine on my bad knee. i figured, i pay $$$$ to get that done at physio.

(it got raised as a joke, but it's a great idea, so i've gone with it)

edit: besides, teagan's just wearing the collar now, we're not using it on her yet.
 
#62 ·
Susan posted a buncha links. I guess these are to refute my claim that no Ecollar can cause burns. But let's look at them.

Susan gave this link
The site that Susan sends us to is anti-Ecollar. This one is not about the Ecollar, it's about the Invisible Fence. It's a completely different tool than the Ecollar.

Since the vet wrote the letter that's cited in the link she's changed her mind that these were electrical burns. She now believes, as was certainly the case, that they're chemical burns, caused by leaking batteries that got wet. I've spoken to her and that's how I know this.

The owner did not heed the instructions that told him not to allow the collar to get wet, precisely for this reason. He left the dog out, it rained and the batteries leaked.

Susan gave this link
This is another anti Ecollar site, this time a blog. This blog links to the original news article. Again, this is NOT about an Ecollar. It's about a bark collar, a device that stops dogs from barking by giving them a stim when they do.

Notice that there is no evidence that the injuries are burns. It's just the opinion of the dog's owner, hardly real proof. As has been said, the only injury that can occur from an Ecollar is sores from friction or from moist eczema. The first is where the contact points rub against the skin. Moist eczema occurs when the circulation under the contact point compromise the circulation because they're on too right or left in one place too long. The same thing can happen to a human, for example from a rubber band around the wrist.

But most telling is a comment FROM A VET WHO EXAMINED THE DOG. He writes
Quote: I independently examined the dog in question. The spots on the dogs neck were similar to hot spots caused by the collar rubbing, much like a shoe might rub a raw spot on your foot.
I guess Susan missed that comment.

Susan gave this link
This link is to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. They say this
Quote: Electronic training devices such as electronic fences and anti-barking collars rely on painful punishment and negative reinforcement, causing dogs to live in fear of being electrocuted for normal behaviors like crossing invisible lines, barking, and jumping onto surfaces within their own homes. Earlier I wrote, Their very language gives them away. "Electrocution" means to kill by electricity and no do has EVER been killed by ANY Ecollar, even the older ones that had much higher levels of stim. AGAIN there's no evidence here, just more opinion.

Susan gave this link
This link to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. This time it's the KC (The Kennel Club) in the UK. This is an organization of behaviorists who stand to suffer fiscal loss from Ecollars. Their members long ago took a stand against Ecollars because they allow for dogs to be trained by owners without consulting their members. Just recently they tried to ban Ecollars in the UK. They were unsuccessful at this. The site says,
Quote: Shock collars work by emitting painful shocks to the dog,
showing that they don't know about modern use of modern versions of the tool. AGAIN there is nothing there but opinion. Not one bit of scientific evidence to support that Ecollars can cause a burn.

Susan gave this link
This is nothing but a different link to the same incident as the first link that Susan supplies. Perhaps she missed this.

Susan gave this link
This link is to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. This site starts out by discussing an incident of child abuse where the parents put an Ecollar on their daughter. This is an obviously emotional appeal that has nothing to do with training dogs with an Ecollar. But let's overlook that .

Interestingly this page directly attacks the claims made of burns in the Rufus links wherein it says,
Quote: May 21, 2002, an eight-month old yellow Lab named Rufus suffered first, second and third degree chemical burns (LC: not electrical burns) because a collar went haywire on a rainy day. (Emphasis added)
AGAIN there's absolutely no reference to burns beyond someone's opinion.

Susan gave this link
This link is to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. Is anyone noticing a trend here? ROFL. It says on this site,
Quote: Many owners report ulcerations after using a shock collar. Studies suggest that this is more likely to be a result of physical contact from the prongs on the collar, rather than electrical burns. (Emphasis added)
It's clear that these folks, even as anti-Ecollar as they are, admit that an Ecollar can't cause burns.

One link that Susan DID NOT POST http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/860.html is to the transcript of a lawsuit brought against the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) in Australia, by Innotek, a manufacturer of Ecollars and similar devices. The RSPCA had made many false claims, including the "burn statement" about their Ecollars. It turned out that the RSPCA has FALSIFIED EVIDENCE in their efforts to get Ecollars banned in Oz. They had supplied photos of supposed "burn marks" on the arm of one of their officers, supposedly cause by a bark collar. But the burn marks WERE NOT BURNS. As someone keeps saying, it's impossible for an Ecollar to burn anyone or anything.

This is something that's extremely easy to prove if it were true. EVERY DOG that ever wore an Ecollar would carry burns and any vet that examined them could show such damage. But there's absolutely no evidence of this. It's a myth spread by those who want to scare people away from using Ecollars.
 
#63 ·
Of course they're from ANTI-shock collar sites. PRO-shock collar sites, like loucastle.com, don't mention any of the downside risks of using the devices, or even have a single mention of any alternative training techniques.

The PRO-shock collar sites advocate using shock collars as the one and only, be all and end all, for training all dogs at all times.

I don't use the devices. I never will. They are banned in all of our foster homes and their use is a breach of our adoption agreement.

Lou can profit off their sale, and convince as many people as he can that these devices are safe, but I have seen the consequences and choose not to torture my dogs with them.
 
#64 ·
Ack--would you all STOP IT already with the e-collar fights! There have been tons of e-collar discussions lately. Why don't you continue it over there! This thread was on fear aggression and not e-collars!

I am glad that Onyx is making progress--that is super news! Basu was fear aggressive and it was a long road with lots of training but he came around really well. I think you'll have to start a new thread but I'll hope you'll keep updating us on her progress!
 
#65 ·
This thread isn't about just Onyx, but fear aggression and what works to help dogs overcome or manage it. There are opinions that the E-collars work, I will try other techniques before this. So if e-collars work for some, then it is relevant to the topic. More helpful testimonies are welcome!

But maybe an E-collar thread debate should begin?
 
#66 ·
Originally Posted By: Susan FOf course they're from ANTI-shock collar sites.
Many of those folks stand to benefit monetarily from people who turn away from Ecollars. They have an agenda based on their wallets not reality, honesty, or fairness.

Originally Posted By: Susan F PRO-shock collar sites, like loucastle.com, don't mention any of the downside risks of using the devices
You're wrong. I do mention the down side of Ecollars. http://loucastle.com/myth.htm Myth #23 addresses it specifically, and the rest of the page discusses the myths that you've brought up and many more.

Originally Posted By: Susan F or even have a single mention of any alternative training techniques.
Why would I have "alternative training techniques" on my website? It's about Ecollars, not clickers or pinch collars. This is like suggesting that Ford advertise Chevy on their site.

Originally Posted By: Susan F The PRO-shock collar sites advocate using shock collars as the one and only, be all and end all, for training all dogs at all times.
I think that's the way it is. I've come across MANY dogs that didn't respond to the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." I've never come across a dog that didn't respond or couldn't be trained with an Ecollar.

Originally Posted By: Susan F I don't use the devices. I never will. They are banned in all of our foster homes and their use is a breach of our adoption agreement.
OK. But again, this has nothing to do with the topic of this discussion.

Originally Posted By: Susan F Lou can profit off their sale
Actually I lose money on Ecollars. But nice try. LOL.

Originally Posted By: Susan F and convince as many people as he can that these devices are safe, but I have seen the consequences and choose not to torture my dogs with them.
Now you're just being absurd. If someone wants to torture a dog they don't need to spend hundreds of dollars buying an Ecollar to do so. Not when sticks, cigarettes, boots and rocks are easily available. Care to take a trip down reality lane? Call your local shelter and ask how many case of abuse they've seen with Ecollars. Then ask how many they've seen with the objects that I mentioned.

Perhaps as you know of Ecollar use, you consider it "torture," but as I advocate and use the tool it causes slight discomfort, about the same amount of discomfort as a single flea bite. Calling this "torture" is nothing but emotional nonsense.

Any ill consequences you've seen have been from abuse, or misuse. That can occur with ANY tool or ANY method.

I notice that you've finally given up on the claim of electrical burns. I guess the COMPLETE lack of evidence was compelling.
 
#67 ·
Quote:Ack--would you all STOP IT already with the e-collar fights!
Agreed. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to train a dog. Susan, just because you've never had to use anything physical on your dogs doesn't mean that EVERY dog can be trained without physical coercion. Some dogs are harder and possess higher thresholds than others. This has been beaten to the ground and after much though myself, I see aversion training has its place but I still firmly believe in building a positive, motivational foundation first and foremost, but everyone trains differently and each dog is different and each situation is different. It's good to post the positives and negatives of all types of training and even passionately disagree so anyone reading can take into account that there are controversies which demand further research and careful approach. What is not good is continuously turning every single e-collar thread into a bashfest against a very useful tool that should not be used by everyone.
 
#68 ·
There have been several e-collar debates on here recently. This thread is not the place for them! I think everyone is intelligent enough to realize that ecollars work well for some situations and not well for others and some people choose to use them (hopefully with appropriate training and guidance) and others choose not to (like me!) WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!! You are cluttering up this thread with stuff that has been hashed out over and over elsewhere on this board.

FOR FEAR AGGRESSION:

I used counter-conditioning and positive reinforcement with Basu. He was fear aggressive with people and not dogs. I built his confidence in himself through standard obedience training and built his confidence in me through more obedience training. Initially I used really high value treats (and it's remarkable that my fingers still work after the way he chomped on them!) in any situation that was difficult for him. The three most valuable commands I taught him were a place command (Bed!, a focus command and a stay command. Those combined worked to get us through many parties here at the house and many social situations outside of the house. He still reacted to people by barking but knew that he needed to lie on his bed and behave (e.g. not snap at people!) and he would be rewarded.
 
#69 ·
Quote: I notice that you've finally given up on the claim of electrical burns. I guess the COMPLETE lack of evidence was compelling.
NO ... just an acknowlegement that I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

MODS -- please remove the e-collar discussion on this thread. As others have said, it's really drifted away from providing anything useful for Onyx's fear aggression issue. Thanks!
 
#70 ·
Originally Posted By: DianaM
Quote:Ack--would you all STOP IT already with the e-collar fights!
Agreed. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to train a dog. Susan, just because you've never had to use anything physical on your dogs doesn't mean that EVERY dog can be trained without physical coercion. Some dogs are harder and possess higher thresholds than others. This has been beaten to the ground and after much though myself, I see aversion training has its place but I still firmly believe in building a positive, motivational foundation first and foremost, but everyone trains differently and each dog is different and each situation is different. It's good to post the positives and negatives of all types of training and even passionately disagree so anyone reading can take into account that there are controversies which demand further research and careful approach. What is not good is continuously turning every single e-collar thread into a bashfest against a very useful tool that should not be used by everyone.
And I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree. With as many dogs as have come through our program with as many issues as we've seen, we have NEVER had to resort to shocking any of them for behavioral compliance. Not one. Ever.
 
#71 ·
How is Onyx doing? Do you have any updates or reports on her? I am really interested to hear how she is doing, how you are coping. I am wishing you the best in rehabilitating and training success with Onyx!
 
#72 ·
Onyx has been doing the same, I have been treating her(kibble) and we have gone for a couple of walks with the gentle leader on. She gets excited when we walk, struggling with keeping herself slow and calm. But is very easy to handle on the GL. There are many dogs we have to walk by(back yard yappers) and she was fine, a bit of froth on her mouth, though. My dogs know where the dogs live and anticipate them. One dog was loose, with owner near and Onyx did jump around a bit.
The other thing that has been happening recently:
Onyx keeps going after my almost 14 yr.(3/17) mix. She does this mostly at feeding time(all raw fed, Kacie & Onyx outside, Clover inside) after they have eaten/up to an hour or when I am in the kitchen making dinner, and Onyx knows that she gets crated when this happens. So now she will after Clover then right to her crate. Wed. night, she started and they both were going at it, Clover gives it right back. I separated Onyx, grabbing her back legs and Clover was ok, but Onyx had a hold of her:(( I am now redirecting her and focus on me when this happens, taking her by the muzzle and make her look at me.
The crate time-out didn't seem to get it. I think that Onyx knows Clover is starting to fail...
I haven't taken her out by car as we have been busy this week, so maybe tomorrow I'll take her somewhere. Her breeder will be in town, so hopefully if time permits she will stop by, interesting to see how Onyx does when she comes over.
 
#74 ·
Yes, she has worn a muzzle, I have the nylon one, not the basket. I will get a basket if needed, but I want to try to work her thru this. It is mostly noise and I am watching her carefully. Like I said it is only around the meal times that this happens. I will muzzle her if I can't stop this behavior over the weekend:)
 
#75 ·
Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThere have been several e-collar debates on here recently. This thread is not the place for them!
It seems to me that this thread is just as much a good place for this debate as it is for a debate about any other method/tool that might be used for this problem.

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI think everyone is intelligent enough to realize that ecollars work well for some situations and not well for others
Ecollars are good for everything involving OB. They're not very good for training circus tricks. They're also very good for stopping undesired instinctual behavior such as chasing game or in this case, fear aggression.

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some do and some don't.

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowFOR FEAR AGGRESSION:

I used counter-conditioning and positive reinforcement with Basu. He was fear aggressive with people and not dogs. I built his confidence in himself through standard obedience training and built his confidence in me through more obedience training. Initially I used really high value treats (and it's remarkable that my fingers still work after the way he chomped on them!) in any situation that was difficult for him. The three most valuable commands I taught him were a place command (Bed!, a focus command and a stay command. Those combined worked to get us through many parties here at the house and many social situations outside of the house. He still reacted to people by barking but knew that he needed to lie on his bed and behave (e.g. not snap at people!) and he would be rewarded.
That's great. Onyx has tried several of these methods. They haven't worked.
 
#76 ·
Earlier I wrote,
Quote: I notice that you've finally given up on the claim of electrical burns. I guess the COMPLETE lack of evidence was compelling.
Originally Posted By: Susan FNO ... just an acknowlegement that I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.
I don't need to change my mind. There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence to support your claim that Ecollars cause burns. NONE, ZIP, NADA. If it was true it would be easy to provide scientific evidence, note that I didn't say unsubstantiated opinions, to support it. but you've not provided a single bit. That's because it doesn’t exist. There's ONLY unsubstantiated urban rumors and opinions.

Originally Posted By: Susan FMODS -- please remove the e-collar discussion on this thread.
I hope they leave it. It pounds many of the myths you're posted as fact. AND it is completely pertinent to this discussion. But I understand. If I had gotten spanked as thoroughly as some have been, I'd want it taken off too.

Originally Posted By: Susan FAs others have said, it's really drifted away from providing anything useful for Onyx's fear aggression issue. Thanks!
The Ecollar is directly pertinent to this discussion. You folks took it off topic with silly emotional discussions in the hopes of scaring people away from them.

I've provided quite a bit of evidence to support the use of Ecollars for this specific problem.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top