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Can fear aggression be overcome??

33K views 142 replies 35 participants last post by  BleuHaus 
#1 ·
I have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.
 
#27 ·
I am taking Onyx an hour away to a great facility that owner also breeds GSDs - Alta Tollhaus, http://www.24kgsd.com/ and the training place is Taking the Lead http://www.michigandog.com/. I wanted to go there in the fall but due to weather conditions I was putting it off. I look forward to Sat. and meeting w/Julie, she sounded like she will be able to help us with private lessons. I also ordered Click to Calm and Control Unleashed from Amazon, and Control Unleashed seller was michigandog(co-incidence?)-I look forward to reading these books!
 
#28 ·
Just to add to the above, I have a fearful reactive dog as well. We just went to a behaviorist on Tuesday. He gave me awsome advice that really made sence- other posters pretty much said it but I want to share what he said about my dog. First, I show up with a pinch collar and choke chain on my dog with his leather lead. He tells me that using these two items with a fearful dog does nothing besides cause pain when they get "emotional". He said you can't change emotions (fear is an emotion) and so what you do when you correct him is cause pain for feeling an emotion and acting on it. So he instructed me to get a gentle leader. Then he gave me an analogy- say your sitting on a plane and when the plane takes off, you have an anxiety attack, can't sit still, antsy, thinking your going to die and your all worked up. The person next to you starts squirting you with a squirt gun every time you show your anxiety and fear. Now, this won't solve your fear problem. It probably will upset you and cause more negative emotion. So, say in the same situation, someone sits down next to you and shares some of your favorite candy and talks with you about what you do with your dogs- they are super into their dogs too, you engage in conversation, eat the yummy food and suddenly, you relax and land. He said, you would probably deal with the second scenario much better than the first. So as you can see, it makes perfect sense that correcting a fearful dog does nothing but escalate the problem. So what he had me do was stand in a corner, he brought his nice calm dog in and stood across the room. When my dog looked at the other dog, he got a yummy piece of venison. Then after he took it, he looked again at the strange dog and the instructor told me to give him another piece. So, the entire consult, every time he looked at the dog, he got something yummy to the point where he got to meet this dog with no growling or any response besides looking up at me for a treat....desired response. So, it was so nice to see him in the same room as another dog with no reaction- he gave me a book to read- Fiesty Fido- which talks about this desensitization technique and so far so good. I am going to attend his fiesty fido class for 6 weeks- has 6 reactive dogs and turns them into super mannered dogs- this was awsome.....of course this cost me $133 but I was super impressed with the results and will be attending the reactive dog class for more practice. Good luck! : )
 
#29 ·
Sasha was extremely fear aggressive (and territorial to boot) when I got her, so I can sympathize. She was bad enough that she would prefer to take the initiative and attack people rather than duck and run given the chance.

I definitely do NOT agree with your vet that Onyx is too old for socialization to help. Sasha was 3.5 when I got her last summer, and trust me, the effort I put in with her really helped her.

At first, I had to be a bit forceful (not harsh, just had to be physical at times) with her to get her under control, as she and I didn't know each other long/well enough to have a good respectful and trusting relationship. I prefer using positive methods whenever possible, but when people's safety is at risk (and dealing with a dog with a bite history), I will use whatever is needed to get the job done asap. So, at least you and your girl will be starting from a good place.

What you need to do is really ramp up the NILIF in all situations. It's great if she listens and looks to you at home, but she needs to start applying it to all situations, regardless of whether she is scared or not. If she truly looks upon you and trusts you as her pack leader, she'll rely on you to protect her and will let you handle any scary situations, even if it means trusting your judgment when you tell her it's okay to allow a vet to examine her.

Once she learns to behave and to look to you before acting upon her emotions, you can set up positive interactions and experiences for her so that her fear can be reduced. First establish control, then work on her feelings. For instance, I did strict NILIF with Sasha, as well as reinforcing my command to sit (whatever redirection command I was using) with a prong if she were to ignore/break the command to lunge/snap at a person. She got a ton of praise for obedience, and once it became a habit for her to calmly sit and watch people going by, I began re-socializing her with people tossing treats, etc.

I think there is a big difference between correcting the fearful behavior, which will only confuse her and make it worse, and correcting for disobedience under distraction (which can be excitement, stress, fear, whatever, it's all distraction). I'd make sure to see a person coming down the street before she did, tell her to sit-stay, and only corrected her if she broke it. I didn't correct initially for growling or barking, just worked on one thing at a time. If I didn't see the person in time and give her a command, I did NOT correct her for the lunge/snap.

Once I got her to understand she could not attack people, because *I* would protect her and decide who was dangerous, I was able to let people get close enough so that we could have positive experiences. In her case, I had to be sure she was safe to be around people before risking taking her out to parks, stores, etc for her to get used to strangers. She also began going to work with me (doggie daycare) where we always have clients in/out as well as all the staff.

Another thing that helped I think was having Nico as a good example for her. She'd hang back behind me and watch him get all the attention from strangers, and over time she would start to follow him when he'd go meet people, though she took a long time before allowing herself to be pet. If she reacted, he'd just look at her like "What's your problem, don't want some nice treats and attention? Fine I'll hog it all." So, I think having him take the pressure/attention off of her when out in public also helped.

It only took a month or two for her to become a whole new dog. Her general anxiety (pacing, tail chasing, panting) was gone within a week and the reactiveness within the next few weeks. I can take her anywhere, have people approach and pet her, anything. While she is reserved and would rather not mingle, she isn't the fearful, snarly nervebag she use to be and she is polite and reliable in public. No panting, averted eyes, nothing. Total calm and relaxation around new people now. She even gets up on the couch and chills out with visitors in the home, so she's not just a managed aggressive dog who is trained to behave. She truly is comfortable with strangers.

If something does upset her for some reason, she will move behind me automatically to let me handle it. I think it's really been a huge weight lifted off her shoulders to know that she can rely on me to deal with anything the world throws at her.

Onyx can get over it, it will just take some extra effort. Feel free to PM me whenever if you want. BTW, Sasha is getting her CGC soon. She can get it now, but I only have time (today is the day, actually) to get Nico done. Sasha will take her test next time this evaluator is available this Spring. Just goes to show a fear aggressive dog CAN be turned around. Not just managed/controlled, but truly changed, and they don't necessarily have to be very young.

Good luck to you and your girl!
 
#30 ·
Aboot99-thank you for sharing that, it does help to see the mindset of the dog...Julie, the trainer told me to bring my gentle leader and not the prong. And NO muzzle! I have used the gentle leader very seldom, as the class I took last only wanted choke, or prong, and I was fine w/ that. Onyx isn't dog reactive, it is when she is approached by people and she doesn't like little kids. I can't wait til Saturday, just got the Click to Calm book today so I have some reading to do before then! Julie does use clicker training. Not sure how much other than consult will be done first time, but it is a drive, so I hope things go well.
I have also been in contact w/ Onyx breeder and she said in the litter, Onyx was alpha female, wouldn't stop playing when the others wanted to and played very rough. She also stated that this is why there are so many GSD's given up to shelters and rescues, because many people will not spend the time to help their dog, they just give them up:(( She was the last female in the litter, and DH wanted her, but breeder recommended a male. DH wanted Onyx! We have had past experience w/ GSD mix male so we weren't new to the breed. I am glad DH chose her!!!
pinkamnl-I agree it does help having another stable dog to show things are just fine! Kacie is the way Nico is, but sometimes I think it would have been better to have Onyx alone-I think sometimes she acts as if "kacie has my back, so I can act this way"( I know~ it is just my opinion:)) We do go to training seperately, but I walk them together. I do practice NILIF and am trying to get all family members to be consistant w/ this.
Thanks for the offer of PM, any help is appreciated!
 
#32 ·
I believe that fearful dogs should never have negative training (ecollars etc) ONLY positive training. It may take you a little longer to get where you are going but once you are there you know it and won't question how the dog will react. Fearful dogs only become more fearful when treated with negatives or pain from ecollars. Lots of treats and praise and above all you have to get the dog to FOCUS on you.
 
#33 ·
Just wanted to add that pulling on any collar even a head halter is still negative so please try a agitation harness. I have my dog on a leather harness with a padded breast plate and she is much easier to handle than on a collar.
 
#34 ·
Update: Well, I went there this Sat. for a private lesson, and Julie was great in helping me w/ Onyx. She even saw first hand her level of aggression. We had been there an hour or so, Julie had ignored her for the first ten min's or so(talking about her history), then she gave treats when Onyx finally gave her a sniff, and then waiting for eye contact eventually. I then let Onyx wander the area on a 4 ft leash, while we talked. A construction guy came in the back door to use the bathroom, and Onyx was about twenty feet from me. Well, she charged the guy, barking and growling, and Julie told him to turn around. I grabbed Onyx as fast as I could, but she was already to him...She didn't bite, so that was good, as she has never bitten. Immediately after that, Julie told me to walk her to the other side of the room and see if she would take a treat from me, she wouldn't. So her anxiety was really ramped up from that incident. Julie suggested "stuff the dog" meaning give treat(giving kibble, or very small pieces) for everything Onyx does positively. And to get her out of any situation that gives her a feeling of fear. Baby steps. She also suggested no group training, as it will push her beyond her limits at this time. Slow socializing, from the fringe, and not to take her in pet shops, go in the parking lot, treat, and more treat , back in the car....
She also told me that the gentle leader collar should be high up on the neck near the "crinkles" of the ear as there are calming nerve endings, pressure points there. It helps to calm the dog when they are feeling the pressure of the collar. Onyx never pulled, she was great on the collar. Even outside with the dogs in the breeding facility barking, she was very easy to handle. I will work on the suggestions she gave me and try to read as much as possible( If I can get away from this site long enough:)) The past couple of days, though Onyx keeps going after my old girl Clover, and starting fights. I discussed this w/ Julie as well, so another thing that we have to work on...
 
#35 ·
Originally Posted By: LUV_GSDsI believe that fearful dogs should never have negative training (ecollars etc) ONLY positive training. It may take you a little longer to get where you are going but once you are there you know it and won't question how the dog will react. Fearful dogs only become more fearful when treated with negatives or pain from ecollars. Lots of treats and praise and above all you have to get the dog to FOCUS on you.
I have no idea of what you mean by the term "negative training." The Ecollar is certainly not "negative" by any scientific or common use of the term. So-called "reward based trainers" have used the term to mean anything other than what they do.

My two success stories cited earlier show that an Ecollar certainly CAN be use with fearful dogs.

It's not necessary that an Ecollar cause "pain" but thinking that it must is a common misconception.
 
#36 ·
not to step on any toes here but have you ever felt the charge from an ecollar? they give a heck of a jolt. i had considered using one on bearla to train her and divert her with her fear aggression. That is until my vet let me feel it. she advised against them and said it actually makes fear aggression worse.
 
#38 ·
Originally Posted By: LouCastle
LUV_GSDs said:
I believe that fearful dogs \
I have no idea of what you mean by the term "negative training." The Ecollar is certainly not "negative" by any scientific or common use of the term. So-called "reward based trainers" have used the term to mean anything other than what they do.
We just had this discussion on another forum. "negative" means taking something away, while "positive" means adding something. "Reinforcement" means encouraging a behavior while "punishment" means discouraging a behavior. So when I fold my arms and put my back to Lucy if she jumps that's really negative punishment, (because I'm removing attention) and an e-collar would be positive punishment (adding a shock to discourage a behavior)
People cringe when I tell then my horses are primarily negative reinforcement learners (like all horses, truth be told). They think I beat them- but all it means is I apply the pressure, for example my right leg behind the girth, until they move their hind end away and then I remove the pressure, thus reinforcing the action.
 
#39 ·
Originally Posted By: bearlasmomnot to step on any toes here but have you ever felt the charge from an ecollar? they give a heck of a jolt. i had considered using one on bearla to train her and divert her with her fear aggression. That is until my vet let me feel it. she advised against them and said it actually makes fear aggression worse.
Did you asked your vet what level she used? If her intention was to scare you because she don't like e-collars she could have you give you the max intensity and that is. Lower intensities barely tickle and if all you want is to divert attention is indeed gentler than a prong or a Halty.

I've felt e-collars infinity of times, multiple of them, different brands. When I have mine in the hands I can stop playing with it and giving myself stims just because it feels funny. I need level 3 just to start feeling it. I invite you to "feel the jolt" with someone not biased against the tool.
 
#41 ·
Originally Posted By: bearlasmomnot to step on any toes here but have you ever felt the charge from an ecollar?
Yes, and so have all my clients and so have most of the people who attend my seminars. I also test my collars every day, by feeling the stim, before I put them on the dogs.

Originally Posted By: bearlasmomthey give a heck of a jolt.
I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.

Originally Posted By: bearlasmomi had considered using one on bearla to train her and divert her with her fear aggression. That is until my vet let me feel it. she advised against them and said it actually makes fear aggression worse.
It's obvious that your vet is NOT the person to consult as to whether or not to use an Ecollar. I suggest that vets stick to medical conditions, few of them know ANYTHING about training a dog and fewer still know anything about Ecollars.

I've demonstrated with my two success stories that an Ecollar CAN be used to treat fear-aggression. It has to be used properly, but that's amazingly easy to do.

I have no doubt bearlasmom that used as you probably used it you easily could have made the problem worse. But it's a mistake to assume that's the only way that the tool can be used.
 
#42 ·
Originally Posted By: Susan FWhen someone will strap a shock collar on their child and give me the controller, THEN I will believe them that "they don't really hurt."
I'd not hand you the transmitter as it's obvious that you'd crank it up to prove a (nonexistent) point. There's no reason to do this when using the Ecollar to train a dog. I suggest that you red my articles instead of assuming how an Ecollar can be used.

I've put Ecollars on hundreds of children and stimmed them. Their response? They giggle!

Originally Posted By: Susan FUntil then, there is no shock collars (or pinch or choke collars, either) in my house.
I've heard this from many people, only to have them later, call and ask for help with an Ecollar with a new (difficult) dog.
 
#43 ·
Originally Posted By: LucinaWe just had this discussion on another forum. "negative" means taking something away, while "positive" means adding something. "Reinforcement" means encouraging a behavior while "punishment" means discouraging a behavior. So when I fold my arms and put my back to Lucy if she jumps that's really negative punishment, (because I'm removing attention) and an e-collar would be positive punishment (adding a shock to discourage a behavior)
People cringe when I tell then my horses are primarily negative reinforcement learners (like all horses, truth be told). They think I beat them- but all it means is I apply the pressure, for example my right leg behind the girth, until they move their hind end away and then I remove the pressure, thus reinforcing the action.
Good succinct explanation of the terms Lucina. Just one thing. The Ecollar (used as I do, on the continuous setting) is positive punishment when the button is pressed. And negative reinforcement when the button is released. It's exactly as you describe in your last paragraph with "pressure" on the horse. You apply pressure with the Ecollar and them remove it to reinforce the behavior.
 
#44 ·
Quote: I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.
Hmmmm.... why even have a setting that permits the dog to be given such a shock. How many people do you think actually keep the device on the "tickle" setting? The fact of the matter is that these devices are designed and intended to cause pain to the dog. The fact that some people may take a more humane approach does not make them more useful or advisable.

Any dolt with a credit card can buy one of these things and slap it on their puppy. They think that "maximum" is the best and they end up having neurotic, frightened, confused, untrusting dogs.

I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar." One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....
 
#45 ·
any training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.

e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.
 
#46 ·
Originally Posted By: jarnany training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.

e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.
Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated.
 
#47 ·
i'm sorry, i just don't understand why physical abuse would create mental problems in one instance, and not the other. are you saying a dog abused w/a training tool other than an e-collar would only have physical issues, not mental ones? i'm just trying to understand this.
 
#48 ·
Susan I asked you to read some articles and it's seems that you haven't bothered to take that advice. May I ask your experience with Ecollars? Ever felt the stim from one where you first perceive it? That's where all my basic work is done. Ever seen one used as I advocate? Or is all your experience in only seeing it used to punish unwanted behavior?

Earlier I wrote,
Quote: I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.
Originally Posted By: Susan F Hmmmm.... why even have a setting that permits the dog to be given such a shock.
When first starting to work with a dog you find his "working level of stim." That's the level he first feels when he's not distracted, or, when he's least distracted in a given environment. But later on, when he IS distracted, he'll not feel that level of stim at all. When that occurs, one turns the stim level up until it IS felt. But it's still, in his distracted state, where he first feels it.

Depending on the dog's balance and levels of drives, Ecollars need to offer various levels of stim. You felt a high level of stim when you were at rest, so naturally it was "quite a jolt," as you described it. But if that level was applied when you were highly distracted, you probably would not have felt it at all.

Originally Posted By: Susan F How many people do you think actually keep the device on the "tickle" setting?
Anyone who is following my methods. There's no reason to do otherwise. It hinders the training and so, is counterproductive.

Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact of the matter is that these devices are designed and intended to cause pain to the dog.
No you're quite wrong Susan. The earliest models were invented to cause pain. They were designed to stop hunting dogs from chasing deer. They were designed to put the dog into avoidance, to have him fear the deer to get the chasing to stop. But modern versions can be used to teach with and so they're designed with many levels so that the level that the dog first feels can be used.

Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact that some people may take a more humane approach does not make them more useful or advisable.
It's EXACTLY that fact that coupled with the more modern design that makes them BOTH "useful" AND "advisable!"

Originally Posted By: Susan F Any dolt with a credit card can buy one of these things and slap it on their puppy.
Any dolt with a credit card can buy ANY training tool and slap it on their puppy. Many of them can cause serious injury, even death. An Ecollar can cause neither. It's probably the safest tool extant used in dog training. It can cause pain if used at too high a level but it CAN NOT cause any injury.

ANY tool can be misused. ANY tool can be abused. No tool is idiot-proof to the right idiot.

Originally Posted By: Susan F They think that "maximum" is the best and they end up having neurotic, frightened, confused, untrusting dogs.
Or they can read my articles and end up with a happy dog that can be trusted off leash at great distances. And those who use Ecollars always have an insurance policy. If the dog disregards a command, we're the only ones who have another chance to enforce it.

The proper response here is EDUCATION.

Originally Posted By: Susan F I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar."
I've trained a few dogs and HAVE NEVER HAD ONE that didn't respond to the Ecollar. I'll suggest that the person using the tool in your case simply didn't know how to use it. If that were to happen with a choke chain or a pinch collar, tools FAR MORE LIKLELY to be used, if only because of the cost factor, serious injury, even death might result. The dog may not make it to the shelter.

Originally Posted By: Susan F One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....
This is NOT TRUE!!!!! No modern Ecollar has the power to cause any burns on a dog's neck. The ONLY injury that can result is some sores from either too loose or too tight a collar strap. That causes friction and/or moist eczema that can cause irritation that if ignored (more evidence that the person didn't know what they were doing) can get infected.

But it's IMPOSSIBLE for a modern Ecollar to cause burns.

To give you some idea of the relative levels of some familiar devices compared to the Ecollar: An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules. An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers, emits 0.914 joules, almost 183,000 times more powerful. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, 640,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator emits 360 Joules, 72,000,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator may cause some first degree burns, "redness," but those are 72 MILLION TIMES more powerful than an Ecollar.

It's best if, in these conversations we stick to facts, not myths or misconceptions.
 
#49 ·
Earlier Jarn wrote,
Quote:any training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.

e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.
Originally Posted By: Susan F Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated.
Medical issues often are beyond being fixed. It's easy for a dog to develop an infection from an imbedded collar of any kind. Those can cause death. No Ecollar has ever been responsible for the death of a dog.

That's not even mentioning the injuries that can result from other tools. The Ecollar can't cause any of those. MANY of them can't be "permanently fixed," such as injuries to trachea and cervical vertebrae AND they can just as easily as the Ecollar cause "emotional and behavioral damage."
 
#50 ·
Quote:I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar." One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....
ANY tool can be misused. The e-collar just happens to be very easy to misuse. I think it's borderline abusive when people put buckle collars on their dog and let them pull like sled dogs on crack, to the point where they're choking and coughing and sputtering. That can't be good. Someone even posted here that some doggie day care person was using haltis as muzzles. Oops. Prongs can be misused, chokes can be really misused, anything in the wrong hands can be misused.

The person who burned holes in their dog's neck should be barred from owning anything that qualifies as living. I guess some people just think that pushing the button on the e-collar makes a dog instantly sit. Push it a different way, it'll down. Push it five times in a row on setting 63, it'll do your laundry. Don't blame the tool when the problem clearly exists with the user. Same with guns. Quit blaming the inanimate object and blame the darn buffoons who'd abuse anything they'd get their hands on, intentionally or because they enjoy their ignorance too much to learn.
 
#51 ·
Well Lou, I can back you up on the stim level making kids giggle......LOL Even my daughter said she liked the sensation...well if the e-collar turns up missing I'll know where to loook!!! And I have tried it my self.........I know exactly what it feels like at the first of stim......It does feel kinda funny.
 
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