Susan I asked you to read some articles and it's seems that you haven't bothered to take that advice. May I ask your experience with Ecollars? Ever felt the stim from one where you first perceive it? That's where all my basic work is done. Ever seen one used as I advocate? Or is all your experience in only seeing it used to punish unwanted behavior?
Earlier I wrote,
Quote: I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.
Originally Posted By: Susan F Hmmmm.... why even have a setting that permits the dog to be given such a shock.
When first starting to work with a dog you find his "working level of stim." That's the level he first feels when he's not distracted, or, when he's least distracted in a given environment. But later on, when he IS distracted, he'll not feel that level of stim at all. When that occurs, one turns the stim level up until it IS felt. But it's still, in his distracted state, where he first feels it.
Depending on the dog's balance and levels of drives, Ecollars need to offer various levels of stim. You felt a high level of stim when you were at rest, so naturally it was "quite a jolt," as you described it. But if that level was applied when you were highly distracted, you probably would not have felt it at all.
Originally Posted By: Susan F How many people do you think actually keep the device on the "tickle" setting?
Anyone who is following my methods. There's no reason to do otherwise. It hinders the training and so, is counterproductive.
Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact of the matter is that these devices are designed and intended to cause pain to the dog.
No you're quite wrong Susan. The earliest models were invented to cause pain. They were designed to stop hunting dogs from chasing deer. They were designed to put the dog into avoidance, to have him fear the deer to get the chasing to stop. But modern versions can be used to teach with and so they're designed with many levels so that the level that the dog first feels can be used.
Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact that some people may take a more humane approach does not make them more useful or advisable.
It's EXACTLY that fact that coupled with the more modern design that makes them BOTH "useful" AND "advisable!"
Originally Posted By: Susan F Any dolt with a credit card can buy one of these things and slap it on their puppy.
Any dolt with a credit card can buy ANY training tool and slap it on their puppy. Many of them can cause serious injury, even death. An Ecollar can cause neither. It's probably the safest tool extant used in dog training. It can cause pain if used at too high a level but it CAN NOT cause any injury.
ANY tool can be misused. ANY tool can be abused. No tool is idiot-proof to the right idiot.
Originally Posted By: Susan F They think that "maximum" is the best and they end up having neurotic, frightened, confused, untrusting dogs.
Or they can read my articles and end up with a happy dog that can be trusted off leash at great distances. And those who use Ecollars always have an insurance policy. If the dog disregards a command, we're the only ones who have another chance to enforce it.
The proper response here is EDUCATION.
Originally Posted By: Susan F I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar."
I've trained a few dogs and HAVE NEVER HAD ONE that didn't respond to the Ecollar. I'll suggest that the person using the tool in your case simply didn't know how to use it. If that were to happen with a choke chain or a pinch collar, tools FAR MORE LIKLELY to be used, if only because of the cost factor, serious injury, even death might result. The dog may not make it to the shelter.
Originally Posted By: Susan F One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....
This is NOT TRUE!!!!! No modern Ecollar has the power to cause any burns on a dog's neck. The ONLY injury that can result is some sores from either too loose or too tight a collar strap. That causes friction and/or moist eczema that can cause irritation that if ignored (more evidence that the person didn't know what they were doing) can get infected.
But it's IMPOSSIBLE for a modern Ecollar to cause burns.
To give you some idea of the relative levels of some familiar devices compared to the Ecollar: An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules. An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers, emits 0.914 joules, almost
183,000 times more powerful. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules,
640,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator emits 360 Joules,
72,000,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator may cause some first degree burns, "redness," but those are 72 MILLION TIMES more powerful than an Ecollar.
It's best if, in these conversations we stick to facts, not myths or misconceptions.