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My two female GSD have been fighting and it's getting worse, need help

19K views 21 replies 14 participants last post by  Sunsilver 
#1 ·
I'll try to be as detailed as possible. Any questions please ask.

I have two female GSD. The oldest Athena is about 6, and the youngest Luna is about 3. Both females. Luna is a solid 100 pounds and is bigger than Athena, however Athena up until recently had always been the dominate one. Athena has never played too well with other dogs. She is just concerned on what I'm doing. She was always very dependent on us so when we got a bigger place we thought we would get another one for her to have someone to play with as Athena is very hyper active.

At first everything went great. They played a little, but Athena likes to rough house and play kind of rough. Luna was always so submissive and never really liked to play like that. Over time, Athena kind of bullied Luna. We tried to correct that situation, and over time things got better with that. However, once Luna got bigger and realized her own strength, they played together less and less, and eventually she started to push back when Athena would confront her. This led to fighting. In the beginning it wasn't too bad, they were mostly pushing and shoving. They looked and sounded aggressive as ****, but nothing ever happened. Was mostly slobber. But it looks and sounds like they are fighting to the death. But they would stop if me and my wife got up and left the room.

We tried lot of different things as far as being better leaders and seeing what was causing these fights and preventing them from happening before they started. Months would go by without ever having a incident. In September last year, we moved and the fights have gotten worse. Luna now never plays with Athena and she has started to initiate the fights. They also will not stop if we leave the room now. Last weekend we had a house sitter and they went at it for a while. Luna pins Athena to the ground and had her mouth over Athena's throat. Eventually when Athena was able to get up she defended herself and cut Luna wide open on her face. Luna had to go see a emergency vet for stitches. Athena was unharmed.

Today another fight broke out. This time my wife was home. Luna approached Athena and started it. She could not stop it and the fight went for several minutes. Again, the same thing happened. Luna pinned Athena down, but when Athena got up she once again hurt Luna with a scratch to her face.

They were split up. Athena kept going to the door and wanting to see Luna. When they finally got back together, Athena went to check on Luna and she was not having any of it. Was obvious Luna was pissed and did not want to be around Athena. I had to separate them again, just by the way Luna was acting.

I understand that this is a dominance issue. Athena has always been dominate over Luna, but now Luna is challenging her. The fights are getting worse but still neither of them is actually biting to hurt or kill one another, not yet. But accidents keep happening and it's only a matter of time. The best I can judge the situation is that Luna does not like Athena and basically just puts up with her. Does anyone have any suggestions. I plan on contacting a trainer tomorrow, but I really don't want to spend thousands of dollars for help if there just going to do it again a year from now. A trainer maybe can fix the dominace, but can they really make each dog like each other and make them want to play with one another? I feel like that's a reach and it would only been a matter of time before something like this starts happening again.

Re-homing Luna is a last resort that I really don't want to do. She is such a sweet dog to us and other people. She has never shown any aggression towards other dogs or animals.
 
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#3 ·
I didn't read through your entire post, I apologize. But, I can tell you female to female fighting is the worst. Once it gets started, it's not likely to stop. Girls seem to be grudge holders.

Make sure your trainer really understands GSDs. Most pet dog trainers are not really experts in aggression. You may want to contact an IPO club for a referral.

There's no need to rehome anybody! You can do the crate and rotate thing to keep them separated. They get used to it, their stress levels go way down and so do yours.
 
#4 ·
Crating and rotating for another 6 or 7 years can be very stressful on dogs and owners. If two dogs, who hate each other, have to live in the same house, they will be stressed no matter if they are physically safe. Females fight to drive the other out. It depends how much time and management you are willing to invest to keep them safe. Another issue is that if they fight, it will get uglier over time and it is also dangerous for you to interfere. But not interfering (to keep yourself safe) with a F-F fight can get deadly for the dogs.
 
#9 ·
I have 2 females, one is a GSD, they are 12 and 5. They have gotten into it a couple times, but nothing like the males. I would say the females get along really well.

I'm doing crate and rotate with the 2 male GSDs and it's not bad. They are rotated pretty good, so they have a good amount of freedom. In the summer I will most likely put a basket muzzle on Apollo so they can enjoy equal outside time. Right now they are inside most of the time due to the weather. I take turns taking them on errands and we go hiking at least once a week. If I had a second person in the home I would not be as reluctant to put them together, but I don't want to get hurt or see them hurt each other.
 
#10 ·
You can never leave them loose together without two adults capable of breaking them up present. And, it is better if you just do not leave them loose together at all.

If they do fight, putting them back together again before the endorphins go down (maybe days) is going to mean another fight.

Crate and rotate isn't the end of the world, you learn how to always make sure one gate is shut before opening the other. It is what it is.

This is why most people do not suggest multiple females.

The question is actually quite serious, and you need to sit down with your spouse about a week after crating and rotating and have a conversation. You have to decide whether this is something you can do. If it isn't, then you have to decide which dog to rehome and how. If you think you can do it, having a couple of nice indoor/outdoor kennel runs (maybe in a garage or basement) can be very helpful. Then you just bring one girl in for the evening, take her out and kennel her and bring the other in for the night. If they start fence-fighting, you can run something between the two runs where they can't see each other -- that knocks it down a lot. But they may not fence fight at all, especially if you have one in, and one out, most of the time. But you have to have two runs. Because you can't just hang onto the one when you release the other.

Forget about dominance. This is Same Sex Aggression, SSA. If you have females where one is a natural alpha and the other is a natural follower, then that works ok, usually, until something may change the order of things. But you don't. You have two bitches that both feel similar in power. Unfortunately, when we interfere, we can often make this worse. Like if we always pet the one dog first, and always feed the one dog first. If the other is naturally more dominant, or similar, they feel the unfairness and blame it entirely on the other bitch. It makes things worse. Spaying will not help, could make it worse, but once fights have broken out, it won't improve matters, and I doubt it will make that much of a difference the other way either.
 
#11 ·
Back when I had a kennel, I had two females who were both super social and dog friendly. One girl decided she hated the other. It was just a bitch thing. Both got on fine with other females.

We had to set up a separate kennel for one of the girls so the other couldn't see her. Just walking past each other made for a huge racket. Of course, we never turned them out together.

Then, we moved and one of the girls died of a mysterious auto immune disorder. We went on crate and rotate for years. Eventually we put our remaining two girls together in the house without incident for years until we lost our older girl to kidney failure.

We're doing crate and rotate right now, it's fine. Lexi isn't dog friendly and though Raff still has his puppy license, I don't want to risk another dog asserting dominance over him.

Dogs are extremely adaptable creatures. Lots of people in the dog world crate and rotate. Most people in dog sports own more than one dog and don't have kennels.
 
#13 ·
No, I don't think the average pet owner is really prepared for what crate and rotate means. I've had to do it with an intact male and bitches in heat. It's a pain, but you get used to it. But also it's not all the time.

I'm fully aware that I may have to crate and rotate once this new puppy matures. Right now she's just 5 months old. She's not one to back down, and my 7 year old bitch is pretty dominant. It is what it is, and I'll deal with it. It wasn't a problem with Carly and Sage, but I dealt with it when I had Dobes years ago. I'm better prepared now.
 
#15 ·
No, I don't think the average pet owner is really prepared for what crate and rotate means. I've had to do it with an intact male and bitches in heat. It's a pain, but you get used to it. But also it's not all the time.
Agreed, only for a few weeks a year and still a pain. You have to be 100% vigilant because determined dogs are fast and creative, whether it is to breed or fight.
 
#14 ·
Ok well bottom line ... is you are screwed!! You pretty well stepped into the deep end of the pool! So ... now you know!

Sigh ... still ...lots of folks have "multiple females" and they say ... they did fine! As it happens "Boxers" are the worst of the worst of the worst "Boxer Rescue Policy" is no female "Boxers" in homes that already have a "Female Boxer!" They ... are that bad!! I have seen my "Baby Girl" "Struddell" nutup on on two occasions! And they had "nothing to do with "female aggression" baby kittens being born ... I screwed up "Struddell" was quiet and respectful with each new birth and Gunther "American Band Dawg" was much more ..."excited."

Gunther greeted each new birth with an excited bark and "Struddel" felt he should show show more respect!! She crossed over me in a freaking flash and was on him!! I had to literally rip her off him! But that was not the end of it!!! She was freaking "Berserk!!!"

Removing her ... did nothing! She was gone ... I had to literally her head held tight to my face, lay on her till she "calmed down!!!" I'm a veteran out at the dogs fighting thing ... but I was stunned by that!! After a bit when she'd calmed the heck down .. I let her up and she was like "hey Dad ... what's up??" I'm pretty much an old hand at breaking up dogs fights .. but I had never seen anything like my baby girl when she just flat lost it! She was just flat gone!!

That ... kind of "insanity" is what your dealing with! The simplest easiest solution is to just admit you made a mistake and rehome one of the dogs!

If that does not work for you?? Then Crate and Rotate, is a viable interm option! But sigh ... no one wants to live with there dogs like. that for life ... I would imagine???

A muzzle seems like a viable solution, you put one on the "aggressor" and you know all seems fine for awhile ... so you take the muzzle off and "Bam" ... there they go again!!!

Been there done that with two males in my case ... an American Band Dawg and my OS WL GSD ... "who always started it! I went to the "ER" for stitches, breaking up one of five fights!!! That is kinda sorta where you are.

But you know ... on the other hand ... lots of folks with the worst of the worst "Female Boxers" do have multiple females and they do fine?? Boxer folks don't tend to talk much ... but in understanding the "basic" mistakes I made ... at the heart of them were ... my GSD was not Crate Trained and he was allowed to "Free Roam" in the house!!

That meant that he was pretty much free to chose "when" he decided to "strike!" And I had to scramble to try and stop him!!

I have no idea if you can stop this or if these dogs will ever be able to live together?? But ... if you want to try, it would take, "Crate Training and a no Free Roaming" in the house policy at the minimum!

And it would not hurt to "also" enlist the aid of a "competent qualified, Trainer" and note if there ad says "Gentle or Positive" only "anything" they can't help you!

So ... that said getting a grip on this crap ... would look like this.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/658865-my-11-month-old-gs-crazy.html

And note "Place and Sit on the Dog" those and a "No free roaming in the house policy" are going to be your keys!! I don't plan on ever doing multiple females myself ... Boxer guy but you know ... crap happens and if I do have to have two females ... that post is what I'm doing ... one trip to the ER because of a "Pack Fight" is more than enough for me!

Ask questions and welcome aboard. :)
 
#18 ·
You don't have to crate and rotate. But you do have to know how to prevent a fight and make is clear fighting is off the table. It is possible. For most of the public, maybe it is too much to ask, and of course we don't want dogs to get hurt or even killed, but I will not live with crate and rotate, not fair to me, not fair to my dogs. Far better to set up a kennel system if total separation is your option. No dog wants to spend half (or far more) of her life in a crate.
 
#19 ·
Very dangerous advice. Don't kid yourself. Two bitches determined to kill each other are going to fight unless they are separated.

No human can 'know how to prevent a fight' with 100% accuracy. I'm guessing you're basing your statement on experience with your own two dogs. Perhaps they just aren't off the charts same sex aggressive.

There is nothing wrong with crate and rotate until owners start projecting all kinds of imaginary human thoughts and feelings onto their dogs. It's certainly less traumatic than being uprooted and shipped off to strangers.

My dogs love their crates. Lexi often sleeps in hers on her own, with the door wide open. She has the option of jumping on our bed, but sometimes, she likes her crate better. It's a dog thing.

Raff has been crate trained with treats, he's got tremendous food drive, so all I have to say is 'treats!' and he flies into his crate with a few dance moves on the way.

No pro trainer worth his or her salt would ever tell you that they know a sure fire way to prevent bitch fights. It may work with a given pair, but it's very dangerous to try to generalize. Bitch fights tend to be truly violent.

Males are more inclined to fight 'about' something, i.e. territory, a female, a toy, dominance, etc. There's a lot of theater involved and posturing. If one dog caves and shows submission, it's over.

Male vs female fights also happen, though male GSDs tend to be somewhat deferential toward females.

Fights happen with GSDs. They're not Labs.
 
#22 ·
Knew a lady with a couple of breeding females, 2 of which didn't get along. She had professionally designed kennels that the dogs lived in. Worked great, until she was away for a couple of days, and the person looking after the dogs didn't secure a gate. The one female ripped open the other dog's belly. She survived, but it took thousands of dollars in surgery, and a prolonged recovery time.

This is what you are facing: crate and rotate, for the rest of their lives, and be aware there's ALWAYS the risk that someone will slip up, and the two will be at it again. Muzzling doesn't work, either. I had a dog aggressive dog, tried to get her use to a very sturdy wire cage muzzle with strong leather straps, attached to both the top and bottom of her collar. She broke the straps. Luckily, I knew enough not to let her be unsupervised when wearing the muzzle.

It's a tough decision, but bottom line is you either rehome one of the dogs, or crate and rotate for the rest of their lives. And if one of them gets loose, well it could be you'll be down to just one female a lot sooner than you think, because they can and will kill each other.
 
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