German Shepherds Forum banner

Feeling discouraged, distraught, and a little panicked

21K views 150 replies 39 participants last post by  telavivgsd 
#1 ·
Please be gentle everyone on what may have been a huge mistake on my part, but I'm really in need of some advice. You can skip this background info if you want, I just thought Id give it. I've posted in the past about some issues with Klaus (7.5 mo), notably a couple times when he would jump up and bite on me when he was apparently frustrated on walks (note that the behavior wasn't really aggressive, more mouthy/pushy). We got some great advice, and using that, NILIF, and ditching the positive only trainer for some more serious group obedience classes, we've made some real progress. Klaus' training has been going well, he's become more confident, and much more respectful of boundaries.

His dog reactiveness is pretty much gone, though he still gets a bit afraid if approached by multiple dogs at once, so that's something we avoid. He's even made some dog friends and actually really likes playing with other dogs one on one. He is still nervous sometimes, though less so, especially when walking on streets at night with just me without my husband.

He also has some guarding issues - e.g. if my husband and I sit someplace he will often bark at dogs, and even sometimes humans that try to approach. We've been working on it, and so far it has only ever been aggressive sounding barking never real lunging or snapping, and I felt that was also improving. I did have to stop taking him to work, because sometimes when coworkers would knock on my door or enter suddenly, he would bark aggressively (though he was tethered to me so there was no real danger). It was a bummer because I like having him there with me, but I understand not every dog is built for every situation and that's not good for him or the workplace. We also live in an apartment building, and since he was about 5 m/o, he has barked when he hears people in the hallways. All of our neighbors have dogs so they're understanding, but it wakes us up sometimes and I'm sure they don't think it's ideal. We actually bought a bark collar for this for bust traffic times but haven't used it yet.

So here's the problem: tonight at about midnight, Klaus was snoring on the floor next to our bed when people started walking through the stairwell. He started barking, we told him quiet after a couple barks and then he went into that loud kind of baying aggressive sounding barking. I got out of bed half asleep in the dark and went to him to put him in his crate. I was annoyed and saying "Klaus no" as I walked toward him, and as I got to him (I don't think I touched him but can't remember, it would've been his flank gently if I did) he turned around and started snarling at me. He's a vocal dog, so I'm used to barks and sighs and groans, and even expressive growls, but this was like a movie sound effect vicious snarling that I've never heard from him. Something in the primal part of my brain told me to back the **** up, and as I did, he advanced towards me still snarling. I said to him "Klaus it's me," thinking he may be confused/startled, and my husband jumped up turned on the light and went to him saying "Klaus no" and Klaus turned and snarled and advanced at him too. I've mentioned in the past that my husband is like crack to this dog, he's absolutely obsessed with him, so I was floored. He grabbed him by the collar anyways and pulled him over to his crate and put him inside. Within minutes Klaus was back to snoring.

I was absolutely shocked and so upset as was my husband. In general Klaus loves people, and if he was ever to be truly aggressive to a person, I would expect it to be fear based, and I take precautions for that, but he showed no signs of being afraid when this happened. It was as if he was a completely different dog. I understand his issues outside our home, and I try to always be a step ahead of them. But inside our home and with just my husband and I, he's our goofy, playful, cuddly, sometimes super annoying as all puppies are, boy. To act aggressively towards us, especially my husband, is the last thing I would expect.

I will note that he didn't bite us, and he easily could have, but this was in no way acceptable behavior. I will also note that the only time I saw something similar was early one morning a month or so again when he woke up barking at someone in the hallway, and I reached for his collar to take him to his crate and he let out a short growl at me. It was definitely not of the same caliber, and at that point I stopped grabbing his collar as much as possible, and never in negative situations as I realized that was stupid of me. Also, we were away for 10 days, and got him back from the pet sitter on Sunday, who was a trained behavioralist and has a GSD, so not an inexperienced guy (just in case that has any bearing on people's opinions).

I'm sorry for the novel, I'm just so upset right now, can't sleep, and feel like this might be some incurable character flaw in our dog. At the same time I feel it's my fault, and I'm making excuses that it was dark, he had been sleeping soundly right before, maybe he was confused, I shouldn't have approached him like that, maybe the newer training is too aggressive (in the vein of the Koehler method, though toned down a bit, and he is not a soft dog) and he feels he needs to defend himself? I love him so much and we've been trying to do everything we can to help him with his issues. My husband rightly says that this kind of thing cannot happen towards us especially - his interactions with the outside world we can limit and control if we must, but this we can't so much.

I thought we were responsible by getting him from someone who really loved his GSD and looked for a healthy titled dog to breed her with, which is about the best breeder situation you'll find here for the most part. I recently found out though that his father, who competed in schutzhund, bit a woman shortly before he died (from a snake bite). I didn't get any details but now that's adding to my anxiety that this may be genetic.

Please any help, advice, anything is appreciated. I feel like I've failed as a dog owner and I'm pretty distraught, so please be a little gentle.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Well let me just jump in and say I really don't think you have failed your dog. I also am not at all sure I understand what the dog was thinking when this happened, but the backstory you gave does not make me think you guys have been negligent causing this sort of thing to happen.

I can only imagine hoe upset I would be if this had happened to me.

My old male did stalk my husband with intent one night. My husband had gone down to the barn and I didn't know thst and let the dogs out to potty. My dog saw my husband in the dark by the barn and went for him. My husband yelled out "Ruger, it's me!" And the dog immediately quit.

My pup was very overtired and we had dinner guests one night, people he had never met prior to that night. He eventually fell into a very deep sleep on his dog bed and when one of our guests walked through the kitchen he woke up and did one little woof and then looked sheepish...my impression was that he woke up to a semi stranger across the room and then as he came all the way to remembered he had met the guy earlier.

So to a much lesser degree I have experienced dogs being confused in the dark or waking up from a deep sleep.

Beyond that it is certainly worrisome and I am sorry you are going through this. Hopefully someone who knows more than me will chime in soon.
 
#4 ·
Well let me just jump in and say I really don't think you have failed your dog. I also am not at all sure I understand what the dog was thinking when this happened, but the backstory you gave does not make me think you guys have been negligent causing this sort of thing to happen.



I can only imagine hoe upset I would be if this had happened to me.



My old male did stalk my husband with intent one night. My husband had gone down to the barn and I didn't know thst and let the dogs out to potty. My dog saw my husband in the dark by the barn and went for him. My husband yelled out "Ruger, it's me!" And the dog immediately quit.



My pup was very overtired and we had dinner guests one night, people he had never met prior to that night. He eventually fell into a very deep sleep on his dog bed and when one of our guests walked through the kitchen he woke up and did one little woof and then looked sheepish...my impression was that he woke up to a semi stranger across the room and then as he came all the way to remembered he had met the guy earlier.



So to a much lesser degree I have experienced dogs being confused in the dark or waking up from a deep sleep.



Beyond that it is certainly worrisome and I am sorry you are going through this. Hopefully someone who knows more than me will chime in soon.


Thank you for your kind words, it means a lot. Initially I figured it was like the situation with your husband, where if I told him it was me, he would stop. If that had been it, I wouldn't be so concerned and would just be kicking myself. But even with the light on and both my husband and I clearly in front of him he continued, so, like you say, it is really worrisome and upsetting. I do so appreciate your support though!
 
#5 ·
I am so sorry this happened. It must have been very scary.

I think there were somethings you could have done different. But hindsight is always 20/20.

He woke from a sound sleep, was probably frightened by the noise and acted defensively, then you get out of bad and "storm" into him aggressively. He was already wired. And he reacted back to your actions.

It's not acceptable. It's scary. But I would not assume at this point that he is deeply flawed or inherently aggressive.

You and your husband need to come up with a plan in case the situation happens again. My first thought would be to do something, or make a noise that will snap him out of his barking fervour. Then call his name happily, once he responds to that, then get out of the bed and lead him to his crate. Avoid grabbing at him or charging into him.

I would also contact your trainer. Let him know what happened and come up with a plan. It may involve using less forceful techniques in some situations. Doing some freeshaping and positive reinforcement based behaviors. Mix up the tools you use.

You have done a really good job so far. You have taken advice and worked through a lot of issues. Good for you. Don't beat yourself up.

Also, you may just want to crate him at night. Avoid the issue all together until you have worked with your trainer.
 
#12 ·
Also, you may just want to crate him at night. Avoid the issue all together until you have worked with your trainer.
I would absolutely do this. Our dogs have always slept in their crates in our bedroom at night - they still do at 8 and 11 years old!

Another suggestion regarding barking in reaction to sounds, I have asthma so I have an air cleaner in the bedroom. You can buy fancy ultra quiet ones, but I like the white noise that mine puts out, it does a great job of masking sounds. We don't hear dogs barking outside, traffic noises, sirens, and neither do our dogs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deb
#6 ·
Crate him at night. Work with him when he is in his crate. Try to teach him when he alerts, say "Ok, that's someone," Then say "Enough." You will need to teach him that "Enough." means to stop a behavior. you can do this with treats, and train him to jump up on you, Hupp, treat when he gets up, then OFF, treat when he gets off. Do this several times, and then say, Enough! If he tries again, Eh, enough! and turn away, ignore. Again, play with his ball, let him chase it, after a few minutes tell him, "Enough." Use enough for several things.

In the crate when he barks at someone, tell him, Ok, that's a person. Enough, and when he stops give him a nice, meaty, raw bone to work on and say "good boy, good Quiet". Turn off the light and go to sleep.

Basically, you are letting the dog know you know about whoever it is on your hallway. And, you are letting him know that you have it covered. Then you are telling him to cut out the barking by saying, ENOUGH. You can use quiet, but it is hard to enforce quiet. You can praise with telling him Good Quiet. Enough means stop whatever it is you are doing, done. Done playing, done barking done jumping up.
 
#9 ·
I'm addition to the suggestions of crating him at night... you may want to bring him into the vet for a full check up.

There are more than a handful of medical conditions that have increased aggression as a symptom.

Sudden aggression to loved family numbers in what is still a pup is unusual.

I would want to rule out any medical causes first.
 
#10 ·
Most of those issues, though, health issues that might cause aggression, don't generally hit a youngster of 7.5 months. I originally thought epilepsy. But, that usually strikes a little later, around 2 years or so.

The pup is starting to grow into his big boy voice and ears. He is still young to be a teenager. Not that he wanted to challenge his owners, but he might be more likely to challenge people in the hall. Again, young for true protectiveness, but not for alerting. Lots of dogs will have a period about now when they get into the barking, stupid stage.

Keep up with your NILIF. Learn how to give him a strong command, like KNOCK IT OFF! without making it sound worried, anxious, or angry. Strong is more like strong sharp words, but backed with confidence that he WILL do as you command. It is not angry or fearful. Dogs to not trust angry or fearful. Dogs trust confidence. Dogs mis-trust crazy and chaos. Dogs trust calm, confident leadership. Never permissive, always follow through, realistic demands.
 
#11 ·
Most of those issues, though, health issues that might cause aggression, don't generally hit a youngster of 7.5 months. I originally thought epilepsy. But, that usually strikes a little later, around 2 years or so.
My first thought for a medical cause was actually along the lines of a pain causing developmental issues... Laying down for long times can increase soreness with some of those. If he was startled out of sleep... idk. I'd still want to do a physical just to rule out all possibilities.
 
#13 ·
Aww ... gezzz are we so bad that relatively recent mentions, feel the need to ask for restraint from the "collective???" When they feel it's uh ... "crunch time" as it were??? That ... is kinda sad ... and I feel kinda it's kinda "inaccurate??" Frankly these days ... it seems most of the rancor it seems to me ... is generated from the "Usual Suspects" towards the "usual Suspects??" The "OP's" tend to get "lost" in the "Dust Ups!" :)

My particular "bias" is that I don't really look at the owners?? I only "focus" on the issue "at hand" I'm not really into the "touchy feely" kinda" thing,... as someone on here "once said" it's not what you say it's how you say it." :p

Sparring "owners feelings" may help them feel better but it won't help them with there dog?? So yeah by and large ... I don't bother trying ... that does not make me "Right" but it does make me me. :)

To wit ... the barking thing at "nothing" is "crap" the dog ... was a ticking time bomb ... sooner or later ... there was bound to be "Blow Back!" Apparently it was "never addressed" "fully" it was just "lived with??" But "this time" ... "the crap hit the fan as it were!" And the obnoxious barking was an "issue!"

"Blame" the "Kohler" guy if you will ... but as I often say to people that do the "private trainer" thing ... the dog "lives" with you 24x7 .... a "private trainer" can only do so much. The dog barked at nothing ... "you understood" he did this and you choose to "live with it" and not "address it" and this time ... that did not work out so well???

Lesson one ... the "Crate" it's a "tool" if..." it is needed or not depends on the dog?? If a dog has "no behavioral issues" then the use of a "Crate is "optional??" If a dog does have "Issues" not so much ... if the dog had been in a "Crate" ... none of this would have happened.

You "apparently" have a "Bark Collar" and chose not to use it?? Well ... if a dog "has a barking issue" you have three options "address" it with a tool, ((Bark Collar) address it directly (leash corrections in our out of the Crate) or live with it?? You "seemed" to have chose the last option "until You didn't???"

And your husband and the dog ... got "lucky!" My standard advise when dealing with a dog with "issues" is to use a "Drag Leash!" A short leash with the handle cut off (for use indoors) so it does not get caught up on furniture ... puppy or dog ... I'm pretty big on not having to "lay hands on a dog "to correct them!"

So blame the dog or the trainer if you will ... but as I see it ... the dog had an issue that was "never properly addressed??" Put the dog in a "Crate" at night ... tie a rope around the "Crate" and if he "barks ... for "nothing" yank the crap out of the Crate! His "behavior" "Barking" in the "Crate" has "consequences" ... "let him figure it out." Or screw it ... go full Michael Ellis on him! If he continues to bark ... flip the whole freaking "Crate over!!" Yeah "ME" ... did that! Most likely ... a bad day for him but it worked ... that dog ...shut the heck up, ... "Problem Solved!"

Frankly "ME" gets on my last nerve... but I luv'ed that one! Simple direct and to the point ... "How you like me now!" So yeah ... "I'm not big on the touchy feely approach ... I "Like to keep it real" for the "Dog! And yeah as they say "talk is cheap" but ... you best belive ... that if I had a "dog" that chose to "Bark" for freaking "No Reason???" He'd not be doing that "Crap" long!

Aww well ... "that's just my two cents" ... I'll let it go at that. :)
 
#124 · (Edited)
Aww ... gezzz are we so bad that relatively recent mentions, feel the need to ask for restraint from the "collective???" When they feel it's uh ... "crunch time" as it were??? That ... is kinda sad ... and I feel kinda it's kinda "inaccurate??" Frankly these days ... it seems most of the rancor it seems to me ... is generated from the "Usual Suspects" towards the "usual Suspects??" The "OP's" tend to get "lost" in the "Dust Ups!" :)

My particular "bias" is that I don't really look at the owners?? I only "focus" on the issue "at hand" I'm not really into the "touchy feely" kinda" thing,... as someone on here "once said" it's not what you say it's how you say it." :p

Sparring "owners feelings" may help them feel better but it won't help them with there dog?? So yeah by and large ... I don't bother trying ... that does not make me "Right" but it does make me me. :)

To wit ... the barking thing at "nothing" is "crap" the dog ... was a ticking time bomb ... sooner or later ... there was bound to be "Blow Back!" Apparently it was "never addressed" "fully" it was just "lived with??" But "this time" ... "the crap hit the fan as it were!" And the obnoxious barking was an "issue!"

"Blame" the "Kohler" guy if you will ... but as I often say to people that do the "private trainer" thing ... the dog "lives" with you 24x7 .... a "private trainer" can only do so much. The dog barked at nothing ... "you understood" he did this and you choose to "live with it" and not "address it" and this time ... that did not work out so well???

Lesson one ... the "Crate" it's a "tool" if..." it is needed or not depends on the dog?? If a dog has "no behavioral issues" then the use of a "Crate is "optional??" If a dog does have "Issues" not so much ... if the dog had been in a "Crate" ... none of this would have happened.

You "apparently" have a "Bark Collar" and chose not to use it?? Well ... if a dog "has a barking issue" you have three options "address" it with a tool, ((Bark Collar) address it directly (leash corrections in our out of the Crate) or live with it?? You "seemed" to have chose the last option "until You didn't???"

And your husband and the dog ... got "lucky!" My standard advise when dealing with a dog with "issues" is to use a "Drag Leash!" A short leash with the handle cut off (for use indoors) so it does not get caught up on furniture ... puppy or dog ... I'm pretty big on not having to "lay hands on a dog "to correct them!"

So blame the dog or the trainer if you will ... but as I see it ... the dog had an issue that was "never properly addressed??" Put the dog in a "Crate" at night ... tie a rope around the "Crate" and if he "barks ... for "nothing" yank the crap out of the Crate! His "behavior" "Barking" in the "Crate" has "consequences" ... "let him figure it out." Or screw it ... go full Michael Ellis on him! If he continues to bark ... flip the whole freaking "Crate over!!" Yeah "ME" ... did that! Most likely ... a bad day for him but it worked ... that dog ...shut the heck up, ... "Problem Solved!"

Frankly "ME" gets on my last nerve... but I luv'ed that one! Simple direct and to the point ... "How you like me now!" So yeah ... "I'm not big on the touchy feely approach ... I "Like to keep it real" for the "Dog! And yeah as they say "talk is cheap" but ... you best belive ... that if I had a "dog" that chose to "Bark" for freaking "No Reason???" He'd not be doing that "Crap" long!





Aww well ... "that's just my two cents" ... I'll let it go at that. :)

you sound like a horrible dog owner CHIP, Flipping the dog cage over?? Great advise...
 
#14 ·
Also, we were away for 10 days, and got him back from the pet sitter on Sunday, who was a trained behavioralist and has a GSD, so not an inexperienced guy (just in case that has any bearing on people's opinions).
i have no advice to offer except aggression towards owner is something that i won't tolerate
i absolutely love my dog and give him the best i can
my feelings will be severely hurt if my dog were to lash out at me with aggression
luckily that hasn't happened and i have no reason to believe it ever will in the future

just throwing this out there
i think you are saying you haven't observed this behavior prior to the pet sitter watching over your dog during your 10 day vacation
maybe something happened?
 
#17 ·
Yes, and no. I think one can expect some changes of behavior at some points in development. A puppy can go from being happy go lucky to more suspicious and aloof.

Aggression toward owners is seriously odd. It won't hurt to get him checked out physically. But pain in joints or pano from growing is not goig to bring out that strong of a reaction. And some form of epilepsy/sleep-brain-disconnect, well, unless the dog starts seizing in front of them, they are not going to be able to diagnose it.

For a change in behavior are you going to spend hundreds maybe a thousand for an MRI on the brain? I wouldn't. Not at this point. Partly because the chances of it actually showing anything other than a possible brain tumor are slim.

I would not take my 7.5 month old to the vet for this, but I suppose a lot of people would. Some dogs sleep deeper than others, mine are usually up while I am still stirring -- they are awake and know who I am. Another dog might not be.

I came into the house with a new toy for my pup yesterday, so I put it around the doorway to her area and shook and played with it -- it covered my hand pretty well, and my 11 year old girl started barking at me. I got into full view (she's kenneled with the werewolf). She still barked strongly at me. Good old Babs! I talked to her. Maybe Babs' eye sight is a little worse than it used to be, and her hearing. Darn. But I am not going to take her to the vet because she barked at me. Her nose should have told her who I was. Well. I am not going to take her, not because I think she has a tumor, but because I can expect some changes in sight and hearing, and possibly olfactory. I dunno. She was fine when I talked to her.

This dog's response is much different. But they have been having issues with the puppy and are changing management style and seeing some improvement. Good. But this puppy is still growing, and changing developmentally. I would go the trainer, management, leadership route. I don't think they should throw in the towel. If the dog presents more incidents of seeming not to know them, when making sure the lights are on and giving the dog time to wake up while crated, if it seems to happen out of the blue, then getting an MRI to see if the dog has something going on in the brain, may be what will ultimately happen.

Besides brain tumor, there is rage-syndrome, which seems related to epilepsy. Why I originally thought epilepsy is because it can happen when the body is shutting down in sleep. It can have triggers. A dog coming out of an epileptic seizure can be disoriented, afraid (possibly fear-aggressive), and may not immediately know his people. But he is young for that.
 
#19 ·
I agree with Selzer on the medical side of things, and also it doesn't sound at all like a drastic change in behavior, just a continuum of what the owners were seeing earlier.

My dogs recognize me and people they know from far away, I don't know if it is smell, body language, or both but my dogs have recognized friends before I have, from a great distance, many times. If they are in the car, my dogs see me coming from a ways away and are watching. My dogs wake from a sound sleep and know me or others. My dogs have on occasion been in extreme pain and haven't lashed out at me or come after me. Dogs don't get confused easily, at least I've never seen it.

I guess based on my experience, I don't agree that a dog can wake up confused, or that this is pain or medical related.

I do think that confrontation-based or maybe weak, ineffectual corrections by an inexperienced handler can lead to this type of behavior, in the right kind of dog. Doesn't mean the dog is confused at all, he knows exactly what he is doing. Living in an apartment can unfortunately be a pretty stressful experience for a protective minded dog. Hard to say what out there is a "threat" and needs alerting and what doesn't.

Dog is doing his "job" as he sees it, and then the owner comes at him and the dog either doesn't respect the owner, has no outlet or other recourse, or sees the owner as a threat to his (the dog's) safety from whatever is making noise out there and reacts in a manner the dog considers appropriate.

Easiest way to solve this problem would be to crate the dog at night with a bark collar. Seek out an trainer's help and build a solid relationship with the dog. Avoid, wherever possible, confrontation based type corrections. I'm not saying avoid correcting, but don't make it into a "fight" with the dog, unless you know exactly what you are doing.

Sorry, OP. I think you have a more challenging dog, and as a handler you need to educate yourself and/or manage the dog (as it sounds like you have, for example not bringing him to the office anymore).

This is a fairly serious behavior, however, and you do need to address it and make sure the dog is not allowed to get away with this, because it could be very dangerous, and it does need to be dealt with by seeking out the help of an experienced trainer.
 
#20 ·
One of my dogs, Natty Boh, is a hound mix. He has quirks. One of them is that he gets very weird at bedtime. He has gone off on us with his snarkyness. He barks and growls. Like others have said - definitely have your dog sleep in the crate. Once Natty Boh is in his crate, which he enters readily, there is no more interaction. We don't look at him, talk to him, or God forbid - open his crate. By morning, he is a different dog. Perfect. No snarkyness.

One thing about sleeping in the crate, my dogs generally do not react to outside noises, while in their crates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: selzer
#22 ·
Sorry, you must have typed this while I was typing my response. Yes I'm afraid it's back to the crate for bedtime, at least for now. He's usually pretty cuddly at bedtime, but as I said the only other time he's ever growled at me (to a way wayyy lesser degree) was also when he had just awoken to an outside noise, so you could be onto something. He does still bark when in his crate, but less so. Thank you so much for your response.
 
#21 ·
Thank you so much everyone for responding. I apologize that I wasn't able to reply more as you were responding, but it was night here and I was (finally) asleep. I'll try to respond to each person in one post!

gsdsar - I think you're right that we really need to change our approach to his barking. Obviously it's easy to respond annoyedly when you're trying to sleep and you know the sound in the hall is no threat, but clearly that doesn't work here. We will see our trainer this weekend (he he been out of the country so our classes have been with his less knowledgeable apprentices lately) so we will talk to him about it. He's just a little "old school" I guess, but the best we could find here for our situation, and I'm afraid his advice about this particular situation will be to respond forcefully which, while it may work for him, might not work for us. Thank you for the support. I guess we will go back to crating him at night - we had stopped because A. Now that he doesn't come to work he's crated for 5-7 hours during the work day so I feel bad and B. He moves around a lot when he sleeps and it makes noise in the metal crate. It's better than what just happened though. Thank you again.

selzer - we will start working on "enough" right away. I can tell you off the bat this is going to be difficult for him, because ending training/playing/things he wants to do is one of the biggest struggles with him in our training but we will start working on it. When he barks at noises during the day, I've tried to initially be like "ok I hear it" and after a couple barks say "that's enough, good job" and call him to me so in the same vein of what you're saying, but I didn't teach "enough" well enough and it's harder to take this approach when you're as grumpy as I am when woken up, but I will try harder - I am at risk of sounding angry in my commands at that time. Thank you for the advice and I'll start working on it.

LuvShepherds - that's what I would like to think, but he had been standing by the door barking for a few minutes at that point, and was super alert, so I'm just having a hard time believing that, though I guess it could be. Thank you though.

melissajancie - thank you so much. I've never been afraid of this dog, so it really threw me off.

voodoolamb - that was one of the things my mind first went to, though he's never shown any other signs of pain, but also because he sleeps a bit weird - loud snoring all the time, like an old man, and a lot of moving around. That said, most days he wakes up from this kind of sleep, trots over to my side of the bed, licks my face, and then flops over for a belly rub or, if I'm already up, wants to play straight off the bat. We will discuss taking him in though, thank you.

Cassidy's Mom - Thank you for the suggestions. I wrote above why I hadn't wanted to crate him at night, but I suppose we will just have to go back to it, especially for now. I'll try to combine my husband about the white noise machine, though I'm not sure how successful I'll be ;)

Chip18 - The trainer seems to be of a belief, which I see as a kind of cultural thing here, that a dog barking at outside noises is a great thing that shouldn't be corrected, but I'll talk about it with him. Klaus does bark at the noises even from his crate, but the crate is farther from the door, so he hears slightly less and he can't run to the door to continue his barking so it's easier to get him to settle. We hadn't used the collar yet because it seemed that since we got him back from the dog sitter his barking had suddenly mostly stop. He would just let out a few low "woofs" when he heard something, which is fine with me, until suddenly the barking was back in full force last night :/ We definitely should get a drag leash - it's something I've been meaning to do since I've made an effort to stop grabbing his collar. Thanks for reminding me - I'll get one stat!

Pan_GSD - the thought crossed our minds - my husband's immediately, but I guess we'll never really know. The guy came well recommended, so I hope that wasn't the case :/

Cliffson - our building has only 7 apartments and I know the people in all of them. What he was barking at was two girls who (while annoying at midnight) were talking normally between them as going up the stairs. We also have like no crime here (hope I'm not jinxing us) and he does it for each person in the stairwell most of the time, whom I can usually recognize by their voices and which apartment they go into. Thank you though, you make a good point.

Deb - I think we will, especially if something similar happens again. I do also agree with selzer, I'm not sure we could justify something like an MRI just yet. This dog has had a lot of vet visits and we have to protect our finances set aside for his medical care as much as possible, but I'll discuss with my vet if she thinks it's necessary. My mind also went to rage syndrome as it's something I had read about and this seemed so out of character. He needs to go soon for working so I'll ask about it then, thank you.

Muskeg - I do feel that it is kind of a drastic change in behavior, because while he has been stubborn and a jerk, he's never been blatantly aggressive towards us, but maybe you're right and it is a continuation. We hope to move to a house in the next year or two Gd willing, so that would also help with this issue. I felt that we had made a lot of progress with him respecting us, and it seemed apparent in other aspects of our daily life. He still has his stubborn teenage moments, but in general he's been much more obedient. We will talk to our trainer about it right away and see what he says too. I also do not want to make this into a fight with him, that's something I've aimed for in our training, as, frankly, size and strength wise I would likely lose.

You bring up something I was wondering about too - should we start using the bark collar at this point. If he is fearful when barking in our apartment (which he doesn't appear to be, especially compared to other circumstances, it really does seem to be guarding, but obviously I'm not an expert), could this escalate the behavior and make it worse? I'll will work ok other approaches too, like what selzer recommended, but should we use the collar too?

Thank you to everyone, I really appreciate it. I'll be taking what you all say to heart and will start working hard on it. We would never give up on him unless we thought he was truly and irredeemable danger, which we of course don't think yet. I just know handler aggression is serious, and not something to be taken lightly.
 
#24 ·
Chip18 - The trainer seems to be of a belief, which I see as a kind of cultural thing here, that a dog barking at outside noises is a great thing that shouldn't be corrected, but I'll talk about it with him. Klaus does bark at the noises even from his crate, but the crate is farther from the door, so he hears slightly less and he can't run to the door to continue his barking so it's easier to get him to settle. We hadn't used the collar yet because it seemed that since we got him back from the dog sitter his barking had suddenly mostly stop. He would just let out a few low "woofs" when he heard something, which is fine with me, until suddenly the barking was back in full force last night :/ We definitely should get a drag leash - it's something I've been meaning to do since I've made an effort to stop grabbing his collar. Thanks for reminding me - I'll get one stat!
Man ... as of late ... there just seems to be a "rash of people getting crappy advise from trainers???". :)

Actually "paying someone for bad advise" is kinda a sore point for me ... but you know instead of going "off" as it were on the barking thing. I'll just explain what I do and expect. :)

In general ...none of my dogs are "Barkers" a dog that barks at every freaking thing ... is not of much value as any kind of "advanced warning system" ie "Guard Dog" in my view??? If my dogs bark in the middle of the night ... "I ... should know" ... something is up??? That ... is how they are "trained" and that is what they do ... but ... I really did not understand/appreciate that ... at the time.

Boxers ... don't get much respect in general as being any kind of "serious dogs" (American Line anyway) but you know we luv them the way they are. Still as "watch dogs" .... you'd be hard pressed to do better. Case in point ....my "Struddell" used to sit on the back of the couch often and especially at night and she would was just "watch" people, random dogs, joggers, cars etc. Come and go .... on the sidewalk and streets. They appear briefly and then move on ... that's what they do. If they do come up the driveway ... give it a few seconds and she will "Bark" and yes .... someone is there ... works out fine. On one occasion I saved "three" strays becasue she altered me they were in our/her yard??? Our yard is raised above the sidewalk so that "usually" (dogs on the lawn) does not happen???



Other than that ...hours months and years of "peering" into the "nighttime darkness" and she never made a sound ... that is what she does and I know that! Still ... one time at about 10:30 pm ... she was yet again on the back of the couch peering into the darkness at nothing??? I"d just gotten off work I was tired and just wanted to go to bed and ... suddenly and unexpectedly ...she went off like a stick of Dynamite??? WTH ... I was annoyed and I said "STRUDDELL NO!!"

She looked at me like ... oh ... OK, then ... and settled down and continued to peer into the darkness .... whatever. The next morning I go out to our "cars" and I see my drivers door is open??? Well ... that is odd ... I don't do that. I get in and that's when I notice ... my radio and amp is gone from my truck and the radio is gone from my wife's car!!!

Yep ... sure enough ... when I told "Struddell" to shut the heck up!!! She "Barked" because those "guys" did not do what everyone else did ... they did not go by and they did not come to the door! She heard them and "attempted to let me know! I disregarded ...her "unusal behavior" and stuff got ripped off!

I filed a Police report ... of course they asked if I could ID the perps?? I had no idea what they looked like myself of course ..."Struddell" did ... I asked her for a description ... but you know ... most likely she was kinda "miffed" at me so she never gave me a "ID." Kinda like ..."How you like me now??

That was many years ago and now I"m down to only "Rocky" and he also does not bark at "background noise'" he understands the usual sounds of the household his world ... but ...you best belive "if" he goes off in the middle of the night??? I will take heed!!!


None of that, is necessarily helpful given the advise you got from your trainer ... and hey if dogs barking at random crap is a thing where your are ... so be it. But as explained my dogs don't do that so if I heard them bark at night ... it means something is up ... so I take heed???
 
#23 ·
Years ago my neighbor had an old husky cross that was an absolute sweety. But if you woke her she came up like demon dog fighting for her life.
I would definitely crate your dog at night. And I would absolutely be consulting a vet and a trainer. I don't think your dog is flawed. Startle me when I'm sleeping and I come up swinging. It takes a few seconds for our brains to wake up.
 
#25 ·
Years ago my neighbor had an old husky cross that was an absolute sweety. But if you woke her she came up like demon dog fighting for her life.

I would definitely crate your dog at night. And I would absolutely be consulting a vet and a trainer. I don't think your dog is flawed. Startle me when I'm sleeping and I come up swinging. It takes a few seconds for our brains to wake up.


Interesting -that does seem to be kind of how this went, except that he had already been standing up barking for a few minutes, though I guess technically he could have been still half asleep. I'm also not someone who's particularly kind when you wake me up, so I see where you're coming from :) We will definitely take him to the vet.
 
#26 ·
Chip - Aww what a good dog Struddell was! I could be prejudging what our trainer's advice will be so I'll definitely ask what he thinks before I say anything definitive.

I feel like it might be (or maybe not) important to note that Klaus doesn't bark at people in the hallway when we're not home - I know because we have a camera on him with sound. I also know he can differentiate between people in the hall, because if it's just me home, he'll bark at people, but as soon as my husband enters the building somehow he knows it's him and doesn't bark at all just goes and sits by the door.

I really do appreciate all the advice and I will definitely be using it.
 
#27 ·
A Primo Pad instead of a crate pan reduces the noise a LOT, I can't sleep in a room with a dog crashing around on a crate pan all night.

As for the barking, when jy pup went through a phase of barking excessively, I would crate him for timeout if he did not heed me when I told him enough, thank you. For your dog, a lightweight drag line might make it easier to escort him to the crate so you don't have to grab him.

You did say he growled prior to this for having his collar grabbed, that is a warning I wouldn't ignore.
 
#28 ·
Oh this just broke my heart :(

Do not think you failed though, no one is a perfect pet parent. Some dogs are just wired differently... there is not something right in their brain. I have a rescue husky/GSD I got when she was younger. She was a good dog at first. Then she got very dog aggressive, severe separation anxiety, etc. I believe there were some things I could have done better, but I believe it is the way she is. I love her to death but there is something not right with her. I have a 6 month GSD now as well I've had since 8 weeks and he is the perfect pup. Playful, obedient, good with other dogs, etc. So it is not my parenting, just a flaw in her brain. I obviously don't know your full situation, but form what it sounds like it sounds like your baby also just has a wire off in his brain.

My friend has a dog that is very aggressive towards other people. She hired a private trainer that specifically works with dogs with aggression issues. Maybe that is something you should look into? Bite this problem in the butt before it gets bad. You don't want it to get bad enough to where you eventually have to put him down because of aggression towards even his owners. I know it is not to that extent or even close, but I fully believe it's all about early intervention. I wish I had understand that before my baby's separation anxiety got this bad.
 
#38 ·
Oh this just broke my heart :(



Do not think you failed though, no one is a perfect pet parent. Some dogs are just wired differently... there is not something right in their brain. I have a rescue husky/GSD I got when she was younger. She was a good dog at first. Then she got very dog aggressive, severe separation anxiety, etc. I believe there were some things I could have done better, but I believe it is the way she is. I love her to death but there is something not right with her. I have a 6 month GSD now as well I've had since 8 weeks and he is the perfect pup. Playful, obedient, good with other dogs, etc. So it is not my parenting, just a flaw in her brain. I obviously don't know your full situation, but form what it sounds like it sounds like your baby also just has a wire off in his brain.



My friend has a dog that is very aggressive towards other people. She hired a private trainer that specifically works with dogs with aggression issues. Maybe that is something you should look into? Bite this problem in the butt before it gets bad. You don't want it to get bad enough to where you eventually have to put him down because of aggression towards even his owners. I know it is not to that extent or even close, but I fully believe it's all about early intervention. I wish I had understand that before my baby's separation anxiety got this bad.


Just want to thank you for your kind words! We definitely hope to nip this in the bud! I do thing his temperament is a big factor in his behavior. I'm sure we make plenty of mistakes, but I do think some of it is just his personality.
 
#30 ·
I didn't read all this but my question is what kind of training has this dog had? Has the pack hierarchy been established?
 
#36 ·
What is NILIF?

My GS bitch had a period of coming up the leash at about that age. When she was put into a down, a submissive position she did not like, she would make a snarley face. Not a growl or overt aggression. On the advice of Don Sullivan we got a prong collar to back up corrections for this. The phase passed. Don Sullivan sounds similar to your Isaeli trainer.
 
#37 ·
What is NILIF?



My GS bitch had a period of coming up the leash at about that age. When she was put into a down, a submissive position she did not like, she would make a snarley face. Not a growl or overt aggression. On the advice of Don Sullivan we got a prong collar to back up corrections for this. The phase passed. Don Sullivan sounds similar to your Isaeli trainer.


I'm hoping this will also pass eventually! NILIF is the "Nothing in Life is Free" program..basically setting a lot of boundaries and asking the dog for something before giving them the things that they want. This is the link I originally read about it at http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
 
#39 ·
"The more time that passes, the more I think that he was not fully awake that night when this happened. Even in the mornings when he wakes up, for the first few minutes he's kind of drowsy, he trips and runs into things sometimes until he's fully awake."

I just read this part of your comment. It concerns me, as I have never experienced this in a young dog. I have had senior dogs act this way. I have had 'drugged' dogs act this way. My current dogs are 2 and 4 years old. They can be sound asleep, but can sense a cat across the street and be up and at the window in a fraction of a second.

It makes me wonder if this is health related.
 
#41 ·
Don't feel discouraged or like you're a bad dog owner. You are a great dog owner looking for answers to a problem. There's no failing in trying your best...
FWIW, it sounds like he is a pushy, challenging pup, who is acting like a punk and will do whatever everyone is willing to put up with. Might be that he will mature out of some of it or that could just be him-even as a mature adult.
When he first started snarling/advancing, it might have helped to give a very specific command rather than "Klaus, no!".
Tell him what, specifically, to do (like Down or Crate-or whatever he normally responds to pretty much all of the time w/o hesitation under 'normal' circumstances).
I know it's easy to say and much harder to think what to do when your dog does something startling and unexpected in the middle of the night, so please don't think I'm being critical-just throwing out ideas. With him already being amped up, I just think giving him something specific and clear to do may have stopped it before it got too far.
Crating him at night sounds like a good idea, but if he ever does it again at some other time, when he hasn't been startled out of sleep, I'd try a loud (to be heard over the noise level), no nonsense, specific command and I'd ask your trainer about a good, safe way to correct him so that the show of aggressive behavior towards you and your husband stops. He could have bit or mauled either of you for grabbing his collar if he truly had bad intent...but your husband took charge and dealt with him successfully. So...it sounds like he's just doing whatever he can get by with, but talking about it with your trainer would be a good idea.
 
#42 ·
Thank you very much for your good ideas. We are hoping to get his downs really good so we can use that, but we can always use sit too. We use corrections in our training, so we will use that when necessary. He does like to push boundaries, definitely.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top