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fear aggression or dominant aggression?

23K views 244 replies 28 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
my guy (pics attached) has just turned 5 months and is lovely for the most part.
we've put our heart and souls into training and socializing him. so i'm not sure what went wrong. we did rush into getting him and i think he has weak genes. a lot of people don't even think he looks full GSD

he's very aggressive when he's out on leash, with both strangers and dogs. he's worse with kids because he hasn't been brought up around kids, because we don't have any in the family. i'm just trying to figure out whether his behaviour is due to fear or dominance, or maybe a bit of both. i am seeing a one on one trainer next month, however there aren't any breed specific in my area so it will be a one time visit and then follow ups as required, and since it won't be until next month i'm doing all i can to read up on behaviour first. but i can't find much about fear vs dominance. i just want to figure out which it is because if it's fear aggression i don't want to reprimand him for fear of making it worse.

whenever we're out on a walk, he will stop. sometimes lay down. i give him a minute and then get him to continue with a treat. he does this a whole bunch of times. he doesn't seem afraid. maybe a little uneasy. but even if no ones about he behaves like this. if someones walking towards us occasionally he will act aggressively, however this just seems to be the case if he's stopped. like, if we'e sat down in the park and people walk past. even in the distance, he will bark at them. if we're walking and other ppl are walking towards us but ignore him, he will act curious and interested as they pass by, trying to sniff at them. if they walk past he;s fine. however if they pay him attention ,he does this weird thing: he sniffs their hand or if i give them a treat, takes it out of their hand, is fine for like 2 seconds THEN begins barking aggressively, lunging at them and growling . he seems to be fine with other dogs OFF leash. but on leash he's very dog reactive. he almost got thrown off puppy training class for scaring the other dogs. the people at puppy training are all scared of him, though he seems to be doing better with them perhaps because they're now familiar faces. when he acts aggressively towards someone, ive not been telling him off because i was sure it was fear. instead ive been trying to desensitize him from a distance to people, and bringing food out as people go past. he is certainly wary of the environment around him, certain noises he'll take a fearful stance ,wide eyes,ears back. however because he sniffs first THEN barks at people, im now thinking he's testing the waters.


in the house, he is mostly submissive. he will greet us by rolling over, obeys all his commands (although he's getting to that teenage stage). however he's displaying food aggression towards us. he's VERY food orientated. he's fine when i feed him his meal, i always make him down-stay until i tell him it's ok to eat. with high value treats however, he will run off and growl if we even go near him. he also thinks, if a piece of food drops on the floor it is his. we are trying to train this out of him. i think i made the food aggression worse, one day he picked some garlic bread off the floor and i wenr after him to fish it out of his mouth and he snapped at me. since then he's been more cautious around food.im reluctant to take things off him as i feel it's made the situation worse. at the moment, we're working on trading, positive methods so he doesn't associate negatively with the food.

other than this, he is obedient to us. when someone comes round the house however, he goes crazy. if he knows them , its fine. a new friend though, he has to put in his crate because lunges,growls,barks at a stranger in the house. I reprimand him for this as i can see its dominance,not fear. he also acts this way with the neighbours. hes basically being territorial of the environment.

thank you if you've read this far, please reply as i really need some advice. just trying to figure out whether his behaviour outdoors is Fear aggression or dominance aggression, because they both require entirely different methods to treat.

TLDR; 5 month old acting aggressive to strangers and dogs outdoors, wary of environment but sniffs people first then acts out. stops a bunch of times during walks, refusing to go further. definitely wary of his environment; territorial of indoor environment towards strangers, showing food aggression in the house. trying to figure out if outdoor behaviour is fear related or simply testing the waters
 

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#2 ·
Ok then ... well the "good news" is you've taken the first step to getting a handle on this, "out think your dog." :)

I don't know if your dog is "fearful" or "aggressive??" The "pro's" say people misinterpret "fear" as "aggression" all the time. I'll give them that. What I do know ... is that your dog is "unpredictable!" If you have a dog that is "unpredictable??" Then you should not be "allowing" people to be touching him. You need to show him how you "expect" him to behave around people. You can't correct a dog for doing something he does not "understand" is inappropriate??

Well ... I guess you could but I wouldn't, "train" him first to make "better choices" and when he "clearly" understands what is "expected" of him. Then you can correct him for making "poor choices" ... make better choices dog!

Personally I would lose the freaking treats, I don't "bribe" my dogs into making "good choices" not being corrected and a "good boy/girl" are good enough. Others of course are free to disagree. :)

In anycase "people" issues a plenty ...no problem, stop giving him the "opportunity" to keep making poor choices! You already know all you need to know about your for "this" which is ... "I have no idea what my dog will do when he meets someone???"

What I would do and any that chooses to can do is outlined here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8015033-post3.html

And kinda links in links here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

But if you follow them aww heck here you go:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

The "Place Command" train "Place" when company comes over ... that is where he goes. Company "ignores" him and your "job" is to keep company out of his face. You will also find "Sit on the Dog" in there. Do that one also and the goal is to "people watch" not interact. Your training him to "ignore" people once he understands that "people" are not a threat to him .. then he is less likely to act a fool.

And ... your dogs not this bad but the "principles" are the same. I never thought to work my dog around company?? Keeping him from biting the crap out of company ... was good enough for me. :)


As always ask questions and welcome aboard! :)
 
#4 ·
Thank you so much for your response :)
I'm currently teaching place command, I say "go to your den Vader" and if he goes been rewarding him. I guess you're right about the treats though, I've been using food to distract from negative behaviour because he's so food orientated. Which in its way is bribing.

I tried the "sit on the dog" a while back but I think he was too young. Being a puppy, he is very skittish, hyper and anxious. He sleeps well in his crate, but through the day even if he's left on his own for a few minutes he cries. So when I tried "sit on
the dog" with him tied on a leash, he was crying and barking and going crazy. Guess I need to persist though.

I don't let people pet him, before he got this bad I would let people put their hand with a treat to show him people = good. I'm training him to a muzzle so that ni accidents can happen whilst hes as you say "unpredictable". We haven't used it out yet. But some people who are rude or have no common sense will put their hand to his nose as I walk past. I'm not interacting thus far, just watching people from a distance. Sometimes I feel like he's never gonna like people, and that's fine but id rather he be aloof than acting aggressively. It worries me sick.

You say I shouldn't tell him off because he doesnt understand what's expected of him, to train him to make the "right" choices. But how do I do this? Ive been rewarding him for good behaviour and telling him off for bad/ distracting him before bad behaviour can occur. I guess I'm. Just needing some guidance

Thanks for all your advice :)
 
#3 ·
Why is it taking so long to see a trainer? Where do you live? Maybe someone will have a few suggestions near by. I think you should also be thinking about working with a trainer weekly. Someone needs to have eyes on this and really be able to evaluate the dog and you as a handler. However, it does sound like fear btw.
 
#5 ·
A live in the UK, in a small city called Preston. I don't drive however ive looked at major surrounding cities such a Manchester. After numerous attempts to find a trainer that specialises in Gsds, with no such luck, I found one in my area. Ive yet to find a trainer who does weekly visits, if anyone has any suggestions feel
 
#6 ·
Could you contact pet stores, dog food stores and even veterinarians to ask for some trainer suggestions? You don't need GSD specific but the ideal is someone who has experience with some of the protection breeds. Good luck to you. Chip will give you many resources. I'm more of the type who suggests finding a good trainer.
 
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#7 ·
LOL well and there you go! Cause I'm more of the type that "figures" well if I can figure it out (Human Aggression) so can others!

Because ... I'm not that special, I say ...if I can do it "anyone can!" KISS is my "core principle" and as "my guy" often says:

Solid K9 Training aggressive dog rehab, dog anxiety - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

on his weekly ... well ... daily radio shows if one has the "Periscope App" ... "lady your dogs not that special!"


I say ... "KISS!" :)
 
#9 ·
he's very aggressive when he's out on leash, with both strangers and dogs. he's worse with kids because he hasn't been brought up around kids, because we don't have any in the family.
Have you researched leash aggression / reactivity?

Training wise its just been basic commands which he already knows,as for socialisation its again not breed specific, I think its been.too much for him, so hes snapped at some of the other dogs and the owners are all very wary of him.

Thanks for your advice
What kind of exercise does this puppy get?
 
#37 ·
Have you researched leash aggression / reactivity?

Yes, ive done a little research, and from what i can gather is he's leash reactive with other dogs. off-lead he's happy to play with other dogs, although sometimes at the owner's displeasure since he likes to play fairly rough.

What kind of exercise does this puppy get?
he gets 2 half an hour walks a day, (someone advised me to go by the '5 minute per month of age' rule) i want to start running with him but someone advised me to wait until he's one year old to prevent hip problems. he also gets the usual run around at the park, about 2 30 minute sessions, fetch, tug of war etc throughout the day in short bursts. my boyfriend roughhouses with him probably once a day and we also train him mentally, sniffer games like 'find it' etc, i'm slowly starting tracking games. we also use NILIF so he has to work for everything.
 
#11 · (Edited)
It does sound like insecurity to me. Did it come on suddenly or has the pup always been like this? Just wondering if it could be fear period related.

I second getting a trainer. You need an experienced person who can evaluate the dog in person. Popular techniques for dominant aggression can exasperated fear based aggression and make the situation worse.

I've personally found with fearful dogs that giving them choices is counter productive. It creates anxiety and leads to more out lashes. Insecure dogs thrive on structure and being told exactly what to do. Also being set up to succeed frequently in order to gain confidence.

Some of the things I've done with fear reactive pups in the past:

Create a really solid focused heel. This allows you to navigate the real world. It gives the dog a complex task that requires 100% focus on his handler. It's hard for the dog to be afraid and to bark and lunge at people while walking through a crowd when he has his eyes locked with yours and is concentrating on keeping position.

Work on targeting. Teach "touch" to a hand held up like giving high five. If you need/want to introduce your dog to someone new have them put out there hand and direct your dog to the target. The dog ends up approaching the scarey stranger with a focused objective. Targeting can also lead to a fun game (holding you hand up high and moving it so the dog has to spin and jump to hit it) that is good for getting jitters out and associating a scarey situation with a fun one.

Those two things combined with exposure and threshold training really turned some of my fosters and personal dogs around.

Aggression is one of those problems imho that need to be dealt with in person by a qualified professional if you have had no experience with it yourself. It's very possible to make the problem worse by trying to fix it unless you know exactly what you are doing.
 
#38 ·
i've been working on heel daily because i too feel it's one of the best things to do to help the situation along. however, i'm finding it very hard. i'm wondering if you can point me to any videos to help because the one's ive been using aren't working.

as for "touch", me and SO taught him 'high five' in the house and he loves it, as well as ''footy'' to shake paw. I've never really bothered to ask other people to use it though so i don't know how he'd react. knowing vader he would put his head to the side and be all confused, i'm guessing it would help the situation. For instance, when he wouldn't stop growling and lunging at a friend she made him sit for a treat to give him a focus. Upon this, he relaxed a little. i'm still reluctant to properly introduce him to people though for fear of making it worse, for now i'm doing it at a distance and working on 'heel'.

Thanks :)
 
#13 ·
Don't let anybody fool you into thinking breed doesn't matter when it comes to socialization. Many people get certain breeds hoping for certain traits, like somebody looking for a home protector may choose a German Shepherd. It is quite common for a German Shepherd to be aloof with strangers sometimes starting at a very early age and forcing people on them can be very stressful and full of conflict.

One member on this forum almost euthanized her dog, not realizing this, because her dog did not want handled by strangers. This was the first German Shepherd this member ever had although she had other breeds which were far more social and she expected the same from the German Shepherd. She thought something was wrong with her German Shepherd because she was not the social butterfuly the owner was accustomed to with her other more social breeds.

Balanced trainers know that breed can make a difference and they use this knowledge to their advantage. Breed matters.

 
#20 ·
Don't let anybody fool you into thinking breed doesn't matter when it comes to socialization. Many people get certain breeds hoping for certain traits, like somebody looking for a home protector may choose a German Shepherd. It is quite common for a German Shepherd to be aloof with strangers sometimes starting at a very early age and forcing people on them can be very stressful and full of conflict.

One member on this forum almost euthanized her dog, not realizing this, because her dog did not want handled by strangers. This was the first German Shepherd this member ever had although she had other breeds which were far more social and she expected the same from the German Shepherd. She thought something was wrong with her German Shepherd because she was not the social butterfuly the owner was accustomed to with her other more social breeds.

Balanced trainers know that breed can make a difference and they use this knowledge to their advantage. Breed matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r7EOFRkDp4
Aww ...yes "everyones" favorite "one trick pony!" Apparently the "fact that the OP" said " I can't find a Breed Specific Trainer" here ...means "Nothing???" And yes ... I post "specific" lectures from Michael Ellis myself because the guy makes a lot of sense.

Still ... "I" find him pretty much "Useless" for JQP "Struggling" with there dogs "issues" as a source of information?? And ... by the way already heard from a member about him online, if anyone other than myself took notice?? If one already understands "how to train a dog" yes a valuable resource if they don't ... "good luck with that!"

Most likely, if they "pay" for his online course or attend or send there "problem dog'"to him ... it work out fine.

Aw well ... I still feel the sing from the latest mod admonishment about "One Upmanship?? So I'll just have to let it go at "this" ... I just post what work worked for me and cite sources "people" are free to do as they see fit.

Nuff said. :)
 
#14 ·
I 100% agree with MAWL that breed/type matters. Dogs have such a slippery genome and high genetic mutation rate we truly do have a wide variety of animals that express their base drives in many different ways. If you aren't familiar with your breed then you are setting yourself up to fail.

I'm mentioning this as this Ellis video mentioned it and I have experience with the breed, not trying to start another fighting breeds thread hijack, but it makes for a very poignant example of why breed matters: I have owned game bred (fighting line) pit bulls. Aggressive ones at that (dog aggressive - i refuse to work with pits that show any human aggression, nor do I think anyone should). The thing with pits is that a lot of their signals of aggression have been bred out of them. Most breeds give plenty of warning that they are about to bite.They do the stare. They growl. They raise hackles. They bark. They snap. Pits dont. It makes them better fighters not to do the threat displays. If you treat a pit like a lab, there will be blood.

The other reason breed matters so much is because it gives you a really good idea of what type of drives your dog is going to have. Just as important as training is giving dogs outlets for their natural drives. I firmly believe that if you dont give those outlets you won't have a sane dog. Terriers need to get out and dig and hunt, so you can bury their favorite toys in sand. Border collies need to herd, so you can give them a ball too large to carry that they can chase around, bloodhounds need to track, so you can buy hunting scents and put them around your yard, etc. Appease the the dog's mind and their natural inclinations that way, give them ample exercise to appease their bodies, and then train - other wise you are battling atleast a few centuries worth of genetics.
 
#16 ·
Oh! Also the breed of your dog is also going to give you a good idea of not only what to expect behavior wise, but will give you a good idea of realistic training goals.

I'd never expect my grey hound to be reliable off leash.
I'd never expect my pit not to be dog aggressive.
I'd never expect my sister's bulldog to climb an A frame and fetch a dumbbell

It would cause so much frustration for both dogs and humans to do so.

Luckily for us, we are shepherd people. The sky is our limit! :)
 
#19 ·
My puppy was doing that, too, and we quit the puppy class and went to a private trainer. Does your trainer understand that kind of behavior? We had to put the dog into a prong collar because he was ignoring us. Treats don't work for this type behavior and can make it worse by accidentally rewarding bad behavior.

You need to watch your dog and act before he reacts. The second you see him tensing up, or preparing to bark, turn around and walk away. Don't ever give him the opportunity to react. Dont be anxious either or it will make him worse. This isn't the end of the world, it's a bump in his training and he is confused. It's your job to make it very clear to him that he can't bark or react like he is.
 
#49 ·
I haven't met up with the trainer yet, just talked to him on the phone. I know he's worked with GSD before though. i've thought about prong collars, e-collars etc, just don't know how to use them. The trainer i've spoken to thinks Vader's behaviour is dominant rather than fear-based, though he can't be sure as he hasn't observed him yet. I'm not so sure, i do feel he's displaying fear and insecurities. But i'm no expert. I don't want to use ,prong collars for example, if the behaviour is fear-based, cus i'm sure that'd just make it worse??

My SO is better than me in that he's more confident. i try to be confident when out and about, but sometimes i can't help but get anxious and it must emit from me to puppy.i'm working on this though :)
 
#26 ·
Everyone should stand behind their own comments here. When you don't just speak for yourself, you will eventually push yourself into a corner and then you will have to speak for yourself. No "like" button to bail you.

Everyone does have a right to voice their opinion here. Those who are not professional trainers or behaviorists should bear in mind that fact. Everything else here is just opinion - some wide range of experience - certainly, but that does not seem proportional on the amount of advise given. I wonder how that all looks to someone new here.....
 
#32 · (Edited)
One thing I would like to point out is that you don't need to have a breed specific trainer as much as you need one familiar with your breed.

Don't ask if a trainer specialized in gsds, i think very few trainers actually ONLY deal with 1 breed. I dont know any good gsd guys who couldnt work wonders with a malinois for example. Ask what breeds they work with the most, what breeds they personally own, etc.

Note to OP: please keep in mind that aggression, especially human aggression like you have described, is a very serious problem that could leave your dog dead and you in financial ruin. It's not something that you want to leave solely up to the advice of strangers on the internet who may have only dealt with one or two of their own personal dogs and have never seen your dog in the flesh. There are many nuances to dog behavior and it is very difficult to properly "diagnosis" problem behaviors without seeing your dog in person. From you example I see an insecure dog. Other posters see a dog that is just being a butt. There are just as many nuances in handling such a dog as the dog has itself. Many of which are difficult to convey through text alone. Timing, amount of pressure and the ability to read your dog is absolutely critical


Please for the sake of your pup seek a qualified professional in your area. Perhaps contact your nations german shepherd kennel club. They may be able to direct you to resources in your area. I'd look into any training clubs that specialise in bite sports. They know gsd aggression.
 
#34 ·
This. When I think of breed specific training, I don't think of someone who only trains pugs or gsds or what have you but someone who has a decent amount of experience with your breed. I think breed does matter. Yes, some things are universal but the reason we have different breeds is because we needed different things from them both physically and mentally.

My parents have a jack Russell terrier. I would not suggest a trainer who has never worked with one. They, IME, require a level of patience and consistency that some other breeds don't. My gs mix picks up on new things right away, is eager to please, wants to work as a team, and is forgiving if we are not on our A game.

Similar to Voodoo lamb...my dog bit another dog. And it was the freaking worst. Basically a friend with two chiweenies came to get something from my house. He knew Chandler was himself attacked by a dog and now had aggression issues. We told him don't bring your dogs. Many times. He brought them in the car with him, they were not secured in the car, he left the car door open, he opened MY door, Chandler got out and grabbed his dog (who left the vehicle) and put a bunch of puncture wounds in its neck. It was one of the worst nights of my life.

Getting a trainer was the best thing. I should have done it earlier. Having an objective 3rd party to train both you and your dog is incredibly helpful. I can't watch and crtique myself as I train but with a trainer I get great feedback in real time.

If you think he could legit bite a person or animal then talk to someone. I think going it alone is stressful, personally, and stress makes the situation harder.

Plus, it can be a lot of fun for you and the dog. My pup loves his trainers. Loves learning new things and it really has deepened our bond. ?
 
#33 ·
Oh one more thing I would like to add. I am one of the "lucky" few that has actually had a dog bite someone.

It. Was. A. Nightmare.

First I want to say it was actually a provoked attack, where legally the dog had a "right" to defend himself and me. Even so I had to have my dog quarantined. Animal control opened an investigation which included them interviewing my neighbor's and vet. Even though the bite took place while a crime was being committed - ac still could have ruled my dog vicious due to the severity of the bite, which meant I would have had to pick up a 6 figure liability insurance, and my dog would ALWAYS have to be muzzled and leashed in public. I ended up hiring an attorney for peace of mind and assistance in dealing with the whole fiasco.

Oh. Annnd. I am still going to be within the statue of limitations for a civil suit for a few more years. So even though my dog is "safe" the $#@!^ who assaulted me can sue me at any time. The judge can always decide that excessive force was used via my dog and I'm up the creek without a paddle having to pay that guy.

And this is for a provoked bite. I cannot even begin to imagine the stress of a dog that bites an innocent victim.
 
#57 ·
I'm sorry that you had to go through that. i don't know what the law is in the States, but i think if it's a provoked attack the UK law seems to be more lenient. imho it's ridiculous that you could be sued when your dog was just protecting you/himself. as for unprovoked, you're right. i'd be devastated if anyone got seriously bitten ,and god forbid he be put to sleep. that's why i'm doing all i can to. i've contacted a bunch of people and am waiting on a response. i just wanted some insight from people on here, i guess mainly for support since none of my friends or family are familiar with the breed.
 
#35 ·
My parents have a jack Russell terrier. I would not suggest a trainer who has never worked with one. They, IME, require a level of patience and consistency that some other breeds don't. My gs mix picks up on new things right away, is eager to please, wants to work as a team, and is forgiving if we are not on our A game.
Many more years ago then I care to admit, I found myself shoveling poop in a kennel in exchange for free training lessons. It was awesome as I was able to sit in on many other lessons as well.

One day the boss man informed me he needed the place to look extra spiffy as we had a special guest coming another trainer who was having issues with their dogs!

Not just any trainer either. He was kinda a big shot in the area. People came from all over to have him train their gun dogs. He had field titles out the whazoo on his labs. His entire livelihood was built on his dog training skills.

Well, his wife wanted to have personal dogs of her own. And they brought home 2 jack Russel litter mates. Which predictably became holy out of control terrors. For a while there I'm pretty sure my boss even wanted to throw in the towel. I swear those dogs were laughing so hard seeing these two big tough guys turning blue in the face. The little stinkers knew exactly what they were doing. :p

Eventually they worked out a plan and got control of the pups. Well as much control as you can have with those spunky little guys.
 
#36 ·
Eventually they worked out a plan and got control of the pups. Well as much control as you can have with those spunky little guys.
Yea, Jacks are... Special. They were the only breed I had as a child. And they are terribly suited for me family. So when I got my German Shepherd mix last year, I learned a lot. I never experienced a dog with an off switch or an eagerness to please. Chandler is aloof but i can tell he gives a flying a fudge what i want. I think my parent' current Jack would burn the house down while flipping us off.
 
#44 ·
Hey, OP, sorry to hear about this incident. I recommend finding a trainer. I think Jamie Penrith might be nearby? At Take the Lead Dog Training. Look him up. If he can't help you, he'll direct you to someone who can.

A good trainer has really solid foundational knowledge and the skills and experience to back it up.

OP- this isn't really directed at you but at other commenters on this thread. I think the difference between someone like Jeff Gellman and someone like Ivan B is that Ivan has a much deeper and better understanding of dog training science and at this point the innovation and experience to work with just about any dog. Where as I see Jeff G having a lot less creativity. He seems to do a rote routine with each dog. Which might work OK in most cases, but he's not going to have the high level results of someone like Ivan B.
 
#52 ·
No tools like prongs can help you if you continue to brush against the grain. This purposeless wandering around which many call "a dog walk"- is typical to humans, but not to dogs. Yes, we are idle wanderers, spectators of happenings, while every dog cannot live without a purpose, especially if he is a representative of a working breed. So, if you go anywhere - you should show your dog what he is there for. Many dog owners waste their money trying to adjust their aggressive dogs by training other behaviour than aggressive, but they bring them to the dog parks only to stay around and yak. At the moment your dog's job in the streets is to bark at people, he thinks - that is his main purpose to be in the streets, he is scared but he knows that his barking keeps monsters at bay. I'm very sorry for your pup.
Walk him focusing on you with a ball on rope, play with him on the way. Start training with minimum distraction level, very early mornings, then later more busy hours. Show him that parks are for ball chasing (on long leash) not for meeting dogs. Walk away luring him away with his ball from distractions, at the moment he is only confronting them.
 
#89 ·
thanks for your advice :) we walked today using his rope-ball after following your advice of giving him a job to do. at first i was a little skeptical because vader sometimes gets over-excited and starts biting the leash, we've been slowly training this out of him but if he's over excited it still happens. so i thought bringing out a rope-ball would amp up this behaviour. however, it helped him to have something to focus on, and he didn't bark at any passers by (believe me,there were a lot for 5 in the morning.) he DID bark at 2 little yappy pugs that were passing by, but i kept him on a short leash and kept everything positive, and tbh they were barking as they came towards us so not really his fault.
 
#54 ·
Re: prongs and e collars.

Yes they are just tools. The can help lead to wonderful results. I personally don't find them cruel, though I do prefer to use them sparingly with my own pups. They're Safer and more effective then choke chains, slip leads, head collars and the like.

However to be effective they MUST be used correctly. Timing of corrections is critical AND fairly individualized. My aggressive pit bull needed a heavy correction at a far distance for very minimal "infractions". The timing and amount of pressure I used for him would be counter productive and probably out right cruel to use on your dog.

Yes. I'm saying it again ; )

Since it is your first time using these tools, it is important you use them under the guidance of an experienced trainer.

Also be wary of using such tools for lifetime management. The goal for 90% of the dogs that you use these with should be to eventually graduate away from needing them. I see a lot of people using them as a band-aid instead of actually training. There may be a day when life happens and you find yourself without your tools and you need your dog to obey.

Your dog officially has a bite history now. Things just got 100x more serious. How did your boyfriend respond to the bite? Did he correct the dog? What he did immediately after the bite can be complete game changers. The pup isn't testing the waters anymore. What I am concerned about is the behavior of your SO directly after the bite reinforced to your dog that biting gets results...
 
#74 ·
I wish I had some pics of my recent off leash/very long drag leash adventures but I never have enough pockets...

Before we started training Chandler could not have been trusted to not be on a short leash. He didn't know to focus on me, to come when called when there was modest stimuli about, and he was reactive to dogs who were far away. Learning to trust us and to have better doggy manners earned him more privileges. We go out to the 8 acres my in laws own and he runs at a full clip, swims in the creeks and ponds, tries to catch koi (in vain). It's a good life and its worth working for.
 
#77 ·
Man ... I'm getting pretty tried of beating this dead horse to death!:


Am I the only one that gets this?? To wit ... a dog does not need an owner for exercise! A dog does need an owner to go on a proper structured walk! The walk is about "discipline" not exercise, a proper "structured walk" can teach your dog how you expect them to behave, a walk and exercise similar but different "both" are needed. :)
 
#86 ·
To the OP:

I think you need a systematic approach to handling this dog. Some hard, fast rules that will help keep you and the dog safe, along with a plan of action that you can follow that will help but not overwhelm you or the dog. Lots of talk about tools and videos of trainers, but little meat to the conversation when it comes to your specific situation.

The first thing you need to do is successfully manage the dog at all times. This means no interaction with people outside of his family / people he already trusts and has shown good behavior around. This means that you manage the situation as well, not through obedience or communication with the dog. You handle people. Let the puppy be. Do not take this dog where it will encounter strangers until you have it's focus (more on this later). If you are at the park and someone begins to approach you, you tell them that they can not approach your dog. If they continue, you tell them to go away. All calmly and matter of fact. You handle the situation and let the dog observe you doing this.

For at least the next few months, I would drastically reduce the amount of contact this dog has with the public. Do not let him practice self rewarding behaviors, like barking at strangers on a walk making them go away. This behavior will become a habit, and habits are hard to break. When you have failures, and you will, look at the situation and ask yourself honestly how you let the dog down. Wrong time or place? Distracted? Too fast too soon? Patience and planning will go a long way towards success.

You have to be the coolest thing in the world. Cooler and more important than any stranger. This takes a couple things, and you have to understand them fully to get the dog on the same page. The first is communication. You need a system to communicate with the dog. This must be something that the dog understands, not just something you think the dog understands. Rote repetition and constant re-enforcement over a week or so should get things to a level of understanding that is beneficial. Working inside a proven system has benefits if you don't want to take the time (which you don't have) to educate yourself in animal behavior and learning theory. This is why people are pointing you in the direction of certain trainers. They have systems and they work. Pick one and dive in. IMO, you want something based in operant conditioning, marker training, clicker training... All the same thing. Get a couple beginning videos or YouTube a bunch of stuff and go from there. If you want my personal recommendations, let me know. What is important is that you find a system and get a good grasp on the basics before you start working with the dog.

The second thing is consistency. Absolute consistency in what you will allow, what will be rewarded, what will be punished, and what is going to happen when. Dogs pick things up very quickly when you are consistent. You pick up a dog bowl, dog gets excited because it's dinner time. You get up out of your chair and grab the leash, dog gets excited because it's walk time. This reality can be taken advantage of in a lot of ways if you consider your routine, your interaction with the dog, and the stimuli that the dog is exposed to. Controlling all the variables in a given situation will allow you to shape the outcome favorably for your training. Set the dog up for success so you can reward the behavior you want. Set the dog up for failure so you can punish the behavior you are trying to extinguish (do this very sparingly and with much planning). Building habits is what you are trying to do. Thinking of training in those terms usually helps people understand the basics of operant conditioning.

Lastly, as many others have stated, you need professional help. That doesn't meant that all the things above won't drastically help your situation. All these things you are going to need to learn from the trainer if you don't get a jump on things. It will just speed the process along if you do your homework and start creating a good learning environment for the dog right away. Stop letting the dog practice bad behaviors (management) and start building good ones (training).

I didn't touch on the fear / aggression / dominance thing because I haven't seen the dog. Any opinion would be speculation as internet descriptions of dog behavior are sketchy at best. If you want my opinion on the dog, shoot some video and post it for review. Please incluse whoever is handling the dog in the video as well so others can see their interaction with the dog.

Best of luck, and feel free to ask for clarification or more information as you need it.
 
#103 ·
Thank you :) i would like some recommendations from you if possible? Although i understand the rules of operant conditioning, while i know there's plentiful ways of "rewarding" good behaviour so to speak, i'm just not entirely sure how we should be "punishing" negative behaviour. i know people are saying about e-collars and prongs, which i'm definitely looking into, but i won't be using this until trainer shows me how and i'm just wondering in the meantime how to punish such behaviour. Obviously i'm keeping puppy's interactions with people to a minimum: just people he knows,family,friends. And just people watching from a distance he is comfortable with. However, when the "bad behaviour " does inevitably occur, i'm not sure what 'methods' to use,so to speak.
 
#105 ·
No, at this point me and SO other are incredibly in love with this dog, he's wonderful indoors and obeys all commands, as of outdoors when no one is about. He's so incredibly affectionate and so smart, his only flaw indoors is some resource guarding around food, which while i know is a serious matter, i would much rather work on these issues than just take him back. i guess it's just my principles,i couldn't give up on him not at this point :(
 
#100 ·
I agree with Steve here, and will add that many bad behaviors go away through OB training. It develops all the things you want in the dog at the same time instead of focusing on the bad behavior alone.
 
#102 ·
Let me give you two examples of why I say what I did, and it bares out a lot of What David mentioned. One dog I created some dog aggression with through frustration. A macho, full of himself male Rott. Showing him in conformation, always restricting him. The other one is your basic nerve bag. Every stupid thing bugs him. Long story short, they obey. I say sit, they sit. I say you can move, they can move. At that point, I don't care if something bothers them or not. I could have spent the rest of their lives trying to change their minds and convincing them everything is good because it means you get a treat, but with two completely different types of dog, you never would see anything bugging them, it was easy enough to show them what was acceptable, and make what wasn't go away through obedience.
 
#104 ·
Let me give you two examples of why I say what I did, and it bares out a lot of What David mentioned. One dog I created some dog aggression with through frustration. A macho, full of himself male Rott. Showing him in conformation, always restricting him. The other one is your basic nerve bag. Every stupid thing bugs him. Long story short, they obey. I say sit, they sit. I say you can move, they can move. At that point, I don't care if something bothers them or not. I could have spent the rest of their lives trying to change their minds and convincing them everything is good because it means you get a treat, but with two completely different types of dog, you never would see anything bugging them, it was easy enough to show them what was acceptable, and make what wasn't go away through obedience.
Could you elaborate on the two bolded sections?
 
#106 ·
Moving him in the ring with more intact males in front and behind him. And only being able to hold him back. Making him sit in tight quarters with other dogs growling at him and staring him down and all you can do is hold him tight and try to bribe him with some liver so you won't be dismissed. You never really get the chance to train the correct behavior in the ring. You do what you can to set up things away from the show, in classes or with friends, but then here comes some strange dog that didn't and all you have is that show lead.
 
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