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Dangerous Aggression -- Fearing the Worst (LONG)

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#1 ·
I haven't posted on this forum for quite awhile because some of the regulars on here seem more interested in proving how smart they are than actually helping... But I figure desperate times call for desperate measures, so here goes:

Ninja, my black GSD who is about 3 1/2 years old has developed dangerous aggressive behavior. I have suffered 4 attacks, and I have had two different "trainers" tell me to put him down. (The third didn't think that was necessary, but believes it will be hard work and it will be touch and go.)

The reason the second trainer thought Ninja should be put down wasn't because he exhibited aggressive behavior -- but because he didn't. She spent several hours here, watching us interact with Ninja. She watched Ninja lick my wife in the face. Watched how he instantly obeyed his sit and down commands. Saw how he even did a sit and stay while we hid treats for him to find. After observing this she said if she hadn't seen the photos of my bites, she would think I was making it up. And because there was no behavior issue she could pick up on, that must mean he is unstable and can't be trusted.

But I don't think this is a case of "Sudden Onset Aggression." It isn't that he attacks for no reason at all. Each time there was a trigger -- but the trigger didn't seem to fit the aggression. And each trigger was a surprise.

Now for the long background...

Ninja is a high drive, black GSD, and we've had him since a pup. He's the third Shepherd I've owned (always one at a time). I thought my 2 previous GSDs were high drive, but Ninja makes them look like couch potatoes. That's why a lot of what I now see were huge aggressive warning flags I just attributed to his high drive nature.

He was always a pushy, even as a pup. Sometimes even nipping my wife to get her to play with him. He NEVER took to the leash. Nothing we could do would settle him down. I even left him with a K9 trainer for two weeks. He did great there. He is incredibly smart. When we came to pick him up, and opened our Jeep door, though, he went bonkers (excited, yapping, when he got in the jeep he was biting everything in sight -- but the entire back-end of the Jeep had been ruined by him long before this... Which was why we took him to the trainer in the first place.) He would get in an adrenaline overdrive mode, and would just be bonkers. When the adrenaline rush wore off, he was fine.

After a year and a half, he did settle down a little. He began to really like affection - giving and receiving. When he was younger, he seemed to view petting suspiciously. But he started coming to my wife or me and leaning into us wanting to be pet... putting his paw on our hand while we did it... licking us as we pet him. He especially loves his lower back and rear legs massaged. He is a very active runner. He is usually tight there.

For a year, I thought we had turned a corner. It was when he was 2 ½ years old that I suffered his first attack. It was really strange because he follows me around everywhere. He probably trusts my wife more (she can do things like give him a bath, or wipe mud off of him) but he is my constant shadow. As I write this now, he is on the floor three feet away from me.

On this evening, he was asleep on the floor and I saw what I thought might be a tick on his hip. I asked my wife what it was, she looked over and said she wasn’t sure. While we talked, Ninja looked up at me, through half closed eyes. I assumed he was sleepy... I went over and gently plucked at the item (which was a leaf) and he came up at me, snarling and snapping. I had never seen this before. I told him to sit, which he did – growling the whole time. His eyes were slits and then he started coming up out of the sit, the growl building. I gave the command to sit again, and gestured, and he attacked my hand.

He had three bites on me before I knew what happened. It was a nasty affair after that as I tried to fend him off. I was able to get behind him and grab him by the scruff and hold him (he was standing. I didn't do an Alpha Roll or anything... just held him...) I kept trying to calm him down, but my voice was shaky. Eventually, he relaxed, and all of the rage left. Cautiously I let go of him and he was totally normal. When I was in the bathroom washing my wounds (several deep gashes on both hands –it’s a wonder I didn’t need
stitches) he came in all concerned. He was like two different dogs.

I have never been attacked by my own dog in my life. I didn’t know what to do. Because he was back to normal, we decided to just make sure everyone knew to give him a wide berth if he was sleeping.

The next attack came about three months later. Ninja was lying in the hallway at night – black dog, dark hallway, bad combination... My son (23 years old) went to the bathroom and must have closed some body part in the door. Ninja (who has always been vocal when he is in pain) shot up like he was being killed and pretty soon the yelping turned into that low growl. I didn’t want him attacking my son, so I opened our door and called for him. Ninja came in, and then launched at me! Same thing as before. After he got several shots in, I was able to hold him from behind. This time the rage came and went in waves. I assume that the throbbing from the injury was causing that. But eventually, it all passed, and he was normal dog – wondering why I seemed to be bleeding again.

We should have taken action then, of course. But, we figured that it was pain induced and we can avoid that situation.

The third attack wasn’t on me, it was on my daughter (21 years old). She was trying to leave through the front door, and he was trying to get out past her, and she nudged him back with her knee (something that she had done before with no incident) and he came on her, snarling and trying to bite.

Fortunately, she had a backpack on and was able to keep him away. I came up and pulled him off of her, and held him until she left, but as soon as I let go of him, he turned on me. More gashes and wounds until I was able to get him outside, where he settled down.

Clearly we were out of our depth. I had no idea what to do about this. I was calling friends and asking for trainers. One guy, a K9 Officer for a local police department, was recommended. He did a one hour "evaluation" which basically consisted of him walking Ninja around on lead (after he had me put a muzzle on Ninja) and trying to provoke him to attack -- and Ninja obliged. This convinced the guy that Ninja was unstable because his dog would never react like that. Of course, his dog was a $6000 Dutch Shepherd sold to his department from a breeder that trained him first. But whatever. The point is that we asked "an expert" and he told us to put him down. So that wasn't good.

We visited another trainer who is somewhat famous for saving last chance dogs. We attended (without Ninja... just to observe) his "Green Mile" class for dogs who had been scheduled for euthanasia, before they were rescued. This trainer thought Ninja could be saved by diligent training, but that it would take a full time effort from everyone in the family. He also wanted to have us bring Ninja to his class... but that didn't seem feasible since one of Ninja's adrenaline triggers is a car ride, and the class was over an hour's drive from our house. I wanted to hire him to come and consult privately, but his schedule didn't permit that. So, although I thought this guy probably knew more than anyone else I had talked to, we couldn't get anything to work out.

We tried to work with Ninja on our own as best we could. I modified my work so I didn’t travel much and my wife and I poured a lot of time into him. The relationship was much better. And then, last week, I got bit again.

This time we had been playing outside, and he had gotten into some burrs. They were the really small kind that look like prickly birdseed. I had removed a few but there were a lot left. When we got back inside the house, I removed a couple more, one on his neck. He looked at me funny, so I showed it to him. He seemed OK. But one was right at the edge of his fur, so I went back to get it too... and that apparently was one burr too many, because I got the snarl and snap, and I stopped and told him it was OK, but he wound up and came again.

This time he had his collar on, so I was able to gain control of the situation fairly quickly. Which means my hand was bit some, but not horribly like before. I moved him to the outside, while holding his collar. Every so often, he would try to turn on me, but I would hold him until he settled. Eventually I got him outside, where the Evil dog spell wore off completely, and he was back to normal.

The issue is, when is enough enough? Two out of three "trainers" told me to put him down. Even the one who thought he could be saved told me I could never ever really trust him again. That's a little scary.

After the last bite, we made the painful decision to have him put down. It was ripping us up, both my wife and me, but we didn't see any way out of this. I knew a vet who would come to our house to do the procedure. Usually he does it for sick dogs of course. But we explained the situation and showed the pictures of the wounds and he agreed.

The plan was for us to tranquilize him so he was asleep and then the vet would come in and give him the final shot. I decided to be there with him through it all, which was just breaking my heart -- especially feeding him the meat laced with Acepromazine. We gave him enough to knock out a horse.

When this gorgeous, graceful dog suddenly staggered and and had to be helped to lay down I felt awful. But I knew what was coming was worse. I've been there when GSDs have been put down before. But never like this. Not in their prime, when we had spent the morning having a great time together. He was out in 20 minutes... lips slack... tongue falling out of the mouth. I had seen it before. I texted the Vet. We were good to go.

The Vet pulled into the driveway while I pet Ninja and tried to prepare myself for what was coming next. I had a hole in my heart you could drive a truck through.

Then, heard the faint sound of the Vert's truck door closing outside -- and Ninja woke up. Then he stood up, and staggered to the back door. He tried to bark, but couldn't. He could barely stand. He lay down again, and I went to comfort him and get him to relax. The Vet began to talk to my wife. I could barely hear them, but I don't have a German Shepherd's ears. Ninja's head came back up, and he stood up again. He staggered to the second door. Started pounding it with his nose, shaking it back and forth. I didn't know whether to cry or cheer. It was an incredible display of sheer will.

I texted to the outside and told them what was happening. The Vet asked me to come outside so we could talk. I got Ninja to lay back down and went to the door. When I opened it, somehow, he was through it before I was. Luckily, we have a second door. I had to lead him back inside and get him to sit and stay so I could leave. He did it but didn't like it. The whole time I was outside, he was shaking the doors, wanting out.

Someone was in his driveway. He wanted out.

The thing I know is that Ninja had no idea what was happening, He didn't know I was the one who betrayed him with the laced liver. He didn't know why this vet was there -- he had never seen him before. The only reason he rose up from his death bed and started patrolling was that someone was in his area, and it was his job to protect the home.

It is really, really hard to destroy that.

So, we put off the execution, and I am back trying to come up with something -- anything -- that gives me the hope that I can have the Ninja that protects, without the Ninja that attacks.

If you've made it to here, thanks.

I'll be happy to answer any questions. I am happy to listen to all theories. I am not interested in getting in a discussion with anyone that is designed to show how smart they are, or how they are so much a better owner than I am. I know I have failed Ninja in several ways. I also know that Ninja is unlike any other dog I have ever met. Some of this was bad teaching. Some of this, I believe, is genetics. I am hoping that whatever it is, it can be fixed.

If anyone knows how, God Bless you... I'd love to hear it...
 
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#3 ·
I read your whole story. I'm so sorry that this is happening. I'm awaiting my GSD puppy but had a mixed one previously. No aggression from him at all. I did have a Lhasa Apso, the only dog that has ever bit me. He had bit my husband when he was only 3 mo old over a hamburger wrapper. He bit me when he was 3 yrs old over clothing. I had a small child so my mom took him. He bit my dad, my brother and eventually my daughter. My mom loved him and refused to do anything about his behavior. He would be fine and then something just snapped in his brain and he would go crazy. About 2 years after my mom took him she found him at the foot of the bed dead. I really think he may have had a brain tumor... I'm an ICU Neuro/Trauma RN and now looking back think he had an illness. My lil poodle went totally crazy trying to bite me when he was 3...tazmaian devil, I swear. Took him to the vet, he had bad teeth...pulled them and the aggression went away. Poor baby was in pain and I had no idea. Just like my patients, when we turn them in the bed, they are in pain and they hit at us.

Hope you figure it out....
 
#4 ·
So sorry you are going through this OP. Have you discussed medication with any of the vets? Some don't want their dogs medicated every day, but if it's between that and death.....

Also consider the lowly muzzle. Military dogs wear them all the time and for lengthy amounts of time - There are several that a dog can eat and drink through - design has improved for comfort to the dog as well.

Those are the only two things I can think of.
 
#10 ·
So sorry you are going through this OP. Have you discussed medication with any of the vets? Some don't want their dogs medicated every day, but if it's between that and death.....

Also consider the lowly muzzle. Military dogs wear them all the time and for lengthy amounts of time - There are several that a dog can eat and drink through - design has improved for comfort to the dog as well.
I actually have been reading a lot about Dr. Dodd's research into Thyroid issues. Some of that tracks with Ninja's behavior, and some doesn't. I will at some point go down that oath at least somewhat.

As for other medications, such as Dog Prozac, or Valium. IDK. Keeping him in a drugged stupor doesn't seem worth it.

As far as the muzzle the problem is he really can't wear it 24/7. The first two attacks came after a muzzle would have been off of him. So, that is a temporary solution, but it doesn't help the big picture, I don't think.

But thanks for the input
 
#5 ·
I'm sorry to hear that you are having all of these problems. I've been in your situation owning a handler aggressive dog and it sucks. However, you need to handle the situation differently.

There are ways to deal with a dog like this and to be successful. First, it is hard to really say 100% if your dog has a mental or physical issue based on reading post. I'm leaning towards the idea that Ninja is a spoiled brat, that can be aggressive and has never had a real meaningful correction for this behavior.

You say that he becomes aggressive in the car. What triggers this aggression or "road rage," seeing a person on the street or in the car next to you? The simple act of riding in the car? Or seeing a dog or animal and getting aggressive? Knowing the answer to that would help. Can't you put him in a crate inside the car, that pretty much would solve the destructive behavior in the car. I had a dog that ate the entire back area of my new Volvo station wagon years ago. He tore the leather, plastic, carpet down to bare metal. You could see the line for the gas tank going into the tank. He had a bad case of "road rage." Anyone making eye contact with him would set him off.

You said this regarding the most recent bite:

This time we had been playing outside, and he had gotten into some burrs. They were the really small kind that look like prickly birdseed. I had removed a few but there were a lot left. When we got back inside the house, I removed a couple more, one on his neck. He looked at me funny, so I showed it to him. He seemed OK. But one was right at the edge of his fur, so I went back to get it too... and that apparently was one burr too many, because I got the snarl and snap, and I stopped and told him it was OK, but he wound up and came again.

I'm sorry, but I am not the most politically correct person on dog forums. I am also rather blunt and do not sugar coat things very well when it comes to aggression.

When he looked at you funny, he should have been sternly corrected verbally, and you should have readied yourself for a fight. Telling him "OK" was the worst thing that you could have done. Over the years, you have been unintentionally training him that you will tolerate his tantrums and now aggression. You spoil him, and we all love our dogs, but dogs like this must earn every stroke of affection we give them.

Snarling and growling is not the time you say "OK." Ok, means good dog, yo are correct, good job, way to go, in Ninja's mind. It also means, I'm a little afraid of you and I hope that you don't bite me. As you have seen (many times), that funny look leads to snarling and growling, snarling leads to biting. In essence, the funny look absolutely leads to biting. That is the time that I would have my come to Jesus meeting with your dog. I do not alpha roll dogs and I do not hit dogs. My hands are for praising and petting. But, I would in a matter of seconds instill the firm believe in your dog that biting me would be a very bad idea. A belief that the dog would carry with him for a very long time.

I suppose the most politically correct way to describe the technique, would be to use the carefully edited and scripted approach of Cesar Milan. I am not a huge fan of his, but I respect what he does with his "dog pack." The technique he uses with the slip collar and leash is pretty close to what I would do with your dog. I can mention this, because Cesar does it and that makes it PC to say. However, if you know dogs and know the technique, he carefully edits the parts of the technique that make it effective. If they showed the whole technique, most dog owners would lose their minds. When Cesar shows a calm, submissive dog lying on the floor and him petting the dog, what you don's see if what you need to be prepared to do. Hold the dog up calmly, until the dog is almost gassed out. Then you lower the dog to the ground, and allow it to recover. Saying "Ninja, what happened to you? You don't want to do that again, do you?" It is very effective, but best done with a trainer or some one to guide you that has handled aggressive dogs.

From what you describe, your dog is reactive and aggressive to pain; ie the incident in the dark hall with the bathroom door. Because of that I would not use a prong or E collar to correct this dog as that may make the situation much worse. I would use a Nylon slip collar, even the one that Leerburg sells as a dominant dog collar.

To fix this problem, your whole family will need to be involved. You will need to be much tougher and much stronger. You will at some point need to muzzle the dog and provoke his aggression and be prepared to win the fight.

I hope this helps.
 
#42 ·
I'm sorry to hear that you are having all of these problems. I've been in your situation owning a handler aggressive dog and it sucks. However, you need to handle the situation differently.
The OP's situation sounds like far more than a handler aggressive dog. Such dogs are usually OK until and unless the handler tries to force him to do something that he does not want to do. I've seen hundreds of handlers with bloody forearms when they gave such dogs a too-harsh correction and the dog responded by biting them. That IS NOT this situation.

There are several ways of dealing with a handler aggressive dog. One is to *****-foot around the dog, hoping to avoid having to force him to do something that he does not want to do. Another is to try to physically dominate him. Either of these is a disaster waiting to happen. In the first case, sooner or later the dog will need a correction and then – LOOK OUT! The second way can break the dog, put the handler in the ER or a combination of both.

I handle those situations by using the Ecollar with drive training. I've worked with dozens of such dogs and in 35+ years of dog training have never gotten a handler bitten by his dog. It's easy to avoid, but since that is not the issue here, it's off−topic.

There are ways to deal with a dog like this and to be successful. First, it is hard to really say 100% if your dog has a mental or physical issue based on reading post. I'm leaning towards the idea that Ninja is a spoiled brat, that can be aggressive and has never had a real meaningful correction for this behavior.
This sounds like the "physically dominate the dog" approach and I could not disagree more. If this was a "brat issue" the biting incidents, such a dog's way of expressing himself, would be more numerous. Such dogs bite for all sorts of imagined or real infractions. Don't put the food bowl down fast enough, you get bitten. Don't open the door fast enough when he wants to go out, you get bitten. Don't play when he's in the mood, you get bitten. These incidents and the attendant observations of the dog do not fit this mold.

Can't you put him in a crate inside the car, that pretty much would solve the destructive behavior in the car. I had a dog that ate the entire back area of my new Volvo station wagon years ago.
Back in the days before custom−made aluminum K−9 containers (crates) that replaced the back seats of police K−9 police cars, it was fairly common for police K−9's, especially those that had been trained for "car aggression" (IMNTBHO a serious mistake) to eat/destroy everything that was not metal on the interior of the police cars, from the dashboard padding to the rubber material on the steering wheel, to the headliner.

I'm sorry, but I am not the most politically correct person on dog forums. I am also rather blunt and do not sugar coat things very well when it comes to aggression.

When he looked at you funny, he should have been sternly corrected verbally, and you should have readied yourself for a fight.

In essence, the funny look absolutely leads to biting.

... That is the time that I would have my come to Jesus meeting with your dog. I do not alpha roll dogs and I do not hit dogs. My hands are for praising and petting. But, I would in a matter of seconds instill the firm believe in your dog that biting me would be a very bad idea. A belief that the dog would carry with him for a very long time.

... Hold the dog up calmly, until the dog is almost gassed out. Then you lower the dog to the ground, and allow it to recover. Saying "Ninja, what happened to you? You don't want to do that again, do you?" It is very effective, but best done with a trainer or some one to guide you that has handled aggressive dogs.
Just remember that hanging a dog (how's that for being politically correct?) is a self−defense move, not a training technique. If a large, strong dog comes up the leash at me, he's going to be rendered unconscious. As soon as he passes out, he's lowered to the ground and allowed to recover. I think it's silly to have a conversation with the dog. He knows what just happened. It's important to be calm, not angry, but asking the dog "... what happened to you?" is goofy.

THAT IS NEVER SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE USED FOR DISOBEYING COMMANDS. IT'S ONLY FOR SELF DEFENSE, to prevent injury to the handler. It's not done for a growl or a snarl, ONLY for a bite or an attempted bite. In my career, once or twice I had to do it a second time, because as soon as the dog woke up, he renewed his attack on me. ONCE, I had to do it a third time. It's done calmly and quietly. All you're doing is showing the dog that you're bigger and stronger than he is, something that most dogs probably already know. Once that is established, you can get back to training.

From what you describe, your dog is reactive and aggressive to pain; ie the incident in the dark hall with the bathroom door. Because of that I would not use a prong or E collar to correct this dog as that may make the situation much worse.
I would not use a pinch or Ecollar "TO CORRECT" this kind of behavior. But using the Ecollar with my methods does not involve corrections. If the issue turns out not to be organic, the Ecollar is probably the best tool/method to use with such a dog. [/quote]

I would use a Nylon slip collar, even the one that Leerburg sells as a dominant dog collar.
Gotta go off topic for a moment. Leerburg's dominant dog collar is a waste of money and one of the biggest scams ever perpetrated on the dog training public. If you need this kind of tool just use a choke chain with a split−ring type key ring to keep it snug against the dog's neck. The key ring needs to be larger than the rings on the choke chain. Put the choke chain on the dog and move it up high on his neck, just behind his ears. Pull on the live ring gently to find the link that makes it the proper size and put the key ring through that link on the live link side of the chain. That will keep it snug and high on the dog's neck. Attach the leash to the live ring of the collar, just as 'normal.' Poof, you have a one−size−fits−all dominant dog collar. Leerburg's claim that a metal collar, used like this, v. one made of rope, will cause physical damage, is absurd. Such damage is caused by pressure against the internal structures of the dog's neck. That has to do with the diameter of the material used, not what it's made of.
 
#6 ·
To start gaining a leadership role, I would start feeding your dog by hand. He only eats when you feed by hand and he earns every handfull.

I would not allow this dog on the bed, or to seek and receive any unsolicited affection. He must earn the affection. No petting because he is cute, good looking or seeking it.

He sits and waits before he goes out any door or through any opening, you go first.

He needs some serious obedience. The obedience can be motivational but he must obey and earn his rewards. The rewards can be a ball tossed, praise or food. Just so others understand, by motivational I mean working for praise and a reward. I would use the old yank and crank methods to make him oblige. He is probably a smart dog, make it fun. But you control the game and the toys are yours. When you are done playing the toys go with you. They are not his. The "two ball" game is great to start.

Everything must be black and white, there can be no gray areas with this dog. I'm willing to guess if you step up and show him that you are in charge he will come around.
 
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#44 ·
To start gaining a leadership role, I would start feeding your dog by hand. He only eats when you feed by hand and he earns every handfull.

I would not allow this dog on the bed, or to seek and receive any unsolicited affection. He must earn the affection. No petting because he is cute, good looking or seeking it.

He sits and waits before he goes out any door or through any opening, you go first.
This sounds like some of the NLIF protocol. I think it's a waste of time.

He needs some serious obedience. The obedience can be motivational but he must obey and earn his rewards.
Trying to do some "serious obedience" may, and it's a good probability, get you bit. And, if the problem is organic, will do nothing to fix it. Once the medical issues are eliminated, using my methods and teaching the recall, the sit, and the down is, I think, the best way to establish leadership. Combine the Ecollar training with my article ESTABLISHING LEADERSHIP and you'll be good to go.

I realize that you have some history with this dog and that you may never trust him if the cause is not organic. But I'd never recommend putting a dog down unless I'd personally seen him and worked with him.

I would use the old yank and crank methods to make him oblige.
If you follow this advice make sure that you have plenty of bandages handy. Why anyone would advise this confrontational, "head−on" approach, especially to a pet owner with a dog like this, when it's just about guaranteed to make things worse, before they get better, IF they get better, is a mystery. But there are plenty of people who follow this old−school way of dog training.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Jim, it's going to be a fight with this dog though, since the dog has gotten away with this behavior, right? It could be a huge fight, nasty fight(s) too. He's already learned he can rage and attack and redirect and get away with it too.

The question is, is the OP ready and able to handle the fight like an experienced handler of hard dogs like you on his own? Is his family able and ready?

I'll be blunt too, I don't think it's worth the safety and well being of the family involved.
 
#8 ·
That is a tough case.

Main problem I see is the dog could seriously damage you or someone else.

Is it really worth it for a dog.

Sounds like it has something wrong with it or it is a total mismatch between your family and this dog.

I'd say let it go or totally review how you and others interact with it.

What you don't describe is the dogs nerves or how you train it or how you discipline it. Is it spoilt and spoken to like a baby and allowed to do as it pleases.

Does it socialize with other dogs?

I hate to hear of dogs that shadow people. It tells me the person never bothered to set the dog up to be comfortable and confident on it's own. The dog doesn't respect your space or right to be alone either.

This is probably a case of no one on the net can advise you as no body knows your living situation and how the dog was treated from a pup.

I never buy it that the dog suddenly acts out. Problems develop. In the same way you fix problems over long periods of time too. It doesn't happen over night generally
 
#9 ·
I would have him checked by a vet. See if there's any sort of medical reason this could be happening. Tough situation. Sorry you're dealing with it. The one thing I would say is that if you decide not to put him down, you need to adopt some better safety measures immediately. Muzzle, crate, something to keep everyone safe until you have a better handle on the situation. Best wishes in whatever you choose to do.
 
#11 ·
Oh Boy you guys. Of all the stories of problems with aggression this is one of the worst cases I've read on this site.

Sometimes there is grey areas sure, but this definately is not one to give advice for over the Internet.

I'm not comfortable even suggesting another trainer.

All I can say to the OP is i had a rescue I fostered that had to be euthanized after he twice bit people. It was just too dangerous and too much of a liability. It was a young healthy dog too.

It's not an execution *if* you decide to euthanize your dog humanely. You have a very hard decision to make, your dog does have a dangerous aggression problem. Regardless if he is unstable or you didn't train correctly (which I've trained incorrectly too and did not get attacked) remember the safety and well being of you and your family is important too.

Best to you as you struggle with this decision.
 
#14 ·
I haven't read all of the posts, but I saw where someone suggested that he could be in pain. I remember reading that he likes his rear legs and lower back massaged. Could he be in pain from spinal/hip problems. Animals are often good at masking pain.
Another thing that stands out to me...the rage triggered on a car ride. Is he having to jump pretty high to get into the car? If so, it may be causing a lot of pain, then he acts out until the pain subsides and then settles down.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Could he be muzzled and taken to the vet to be checked out and maybe have X rays done on hips/spine?
 
#15 ·
Have you ever had full blood work and X-rays on him? Every attack seemed to have something to do with his body? I'm not excusing any aggressive behavior but every trigger was touching him. The tick was where in his body? The burrs were where? The bathroom door shut where? Your daughter nudged him where? Is there a connection to any of these? Is he in pain and you don't know it?
 
#16 ·
I guess the first thing is to understand that there are going to be some dogs that genetically have a rage problem and this may not be trainable. You can google rage syndrome in dogs. But the other thing is that what you have described may still needs to be evaluated by a very very capable trainer. I just don't think anyone on here can say anything definitively other than muzzle or crate but if done wrong I would imagine could increase barrier frustration and aggravate the problems. Sorry. This must be tough.
 
#18 ·
Brutal honesty here. Put him down. The liability of this dog is ginormous. It's you who keep getting bit, but what if your daughter did not have s back pack on? What if it's a friend?

This dog will never be fixed, he will be managed, and you will always be ready for another mauling. There will never be/and should not be now, laying on the floor together. What if he came at you laying down, you have no leverage.

I am sorry. And I know you are trying hard, I respect the heck out of you. I really do. But this is too much. This is 4 true serious attacks, on you his owner and caretaker.

I am sorry, put him down. For your own safety.
 
#19 ·
I'm so sorry, this is well beyond my skill set. Perhaps someone can recommend a trainer to help you in person. This is not something to be fixed on an internet forum! You need a good trainer's input and expertise. Focus on finding one, if you are committed to this dog.

I don't believe pain is the issue. Dogs in pain don't attack people for sustained periods of time.
 
#20 ·
My heart goes out to you. Grim is 2, and by the time he was 1 he had bitten the neighbor for coming into our yard. By the time he was 2 he had bitten me during a nail trim, breaking skin. We use a muzzle for nail trims now and are very careful about how we introduce strangers to Grim. He recently growled at a 17 year old kennel worker when she walked by his kennel at my work at a vet hospital. He doesn't go on walks in the woods because of the off leash dogs ( he is also dog aggressive, although both his dog and human aggression has gotten better). Everywhere I go, Grim's looks are complimented. He is a gorgeous liability, and every day my husband and I face our agreement that if he bites another person, he gets put down. So we manage oh so carefully, because we love him. He is a good dog, just to us, and we recently found a vet tech who does behavior who was able to handle him during a blood draw without him going over threshold and attempting a bite through his muzzle. Talk to David Winners. He may be able to help.
 
#21 ·
I also can say that David has been our family's rock through this. He even offered to do a board and train for us. My husband was adamant that Grim's attachment to us and fear of everyone else would make that cruel. So we had to say no, although I am still very tempted!
 
#22 ·
The thing about him looking at you funny, and then it happened. And it took a while to get him out of it, and then he was his normal self again.

Have you considered epilepsy?

The dog was sleeping several times. And out of this sleep, he is coming up at you when you point at him, or go to pluck something off of him. I am guessing that you pluck things off of him frequently, but if he is in or going into one of these incidents, he reacts. Maybe he reacts because a sick animal's instinct is to protect himself from pack members who might kill him while he is down.

Your dog is not really that much of a liability. He bites you. When your adult children are around, use the muzzle or put him in his crate. Have him sleep in his crate.

Illness or not, when you go to examine his fur or pull stuff off of him, muzzle him first.

Yes, many of us who have pets would put a pet like this down. Too dangerous to us to have a dog that is attacking the handler. I think you can learn to tip toe around your dog, most of us won't do that. But, what I mean by that is, always tell him first, "Go lay down", no nudging, no taking the collar to get him where you want him, no just trying to grab a tick or burr off of him. No pointing at him.

I don't know if he is protecting himself against what he feels is unjust punishment, or if he is irritable about his space being invaded, or if he is undergoing brain activity that hasn't progressed to seizures (won't if it is rage syndrome).

I think that choosing to euthanize this dog wouldn't make you a failure or a horrible person. If we knew it was solely behavioral, someone could set up a plan for exercise, training, and management that might put you on the right course for the dog.

I am sorry you are having this issue. It is a hard choice whichever way you go. Maybe one of those kids will present you with a grandchild, and then, things may be clearer. Again, really sorry. I hope there is some hope for your boy, because I know you love him.
 
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#24 ·
Even to me, this sounds a bit much?? A clear, I've not seen that before case??? A full "Blood Panel/Vet check seems to be well in order, before doing anything; other than as suggested a muzzled, no free roaming in the house (Crate or Place inside) and keep a "Drag leash" on the dog in the house. A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture.

Hm ... and most likely muzzle conditioning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOqf3NvUh5g

Most like this one is more suited here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_OcF1wbmnU

Something is off here??
 
#27 ·
I have no experience with aggressive dogs so I am not going to make any suggestions about how to handle the aggression. It's just that the comment someone made about a brain tumor, and more especially Selzer's suggestion of possible epilepsy, resonated with me. Certainly, no one would blame you if you made the decision that "enough is enough" and put your dog put to sleep. But if you decide to try one more time, I think I would have him evaluated along those lines.

A good friend of mine was subject to petit mal, not grand mal seizures. Unless you knew or were familiar with what she looked like during the episodes, you wouldn't have known she was having a seizure. She would sometimes rock back and forth, be unable to respond verbally, appear to be staring at you without really seeing you, etc. I don't know this for sure but I guess it's possible that your dog could be having something like this, and because he is not falling to the ground or frothing at the mouth, etc, it might not even enter anybody's mind that he is having some kind of seizure. And if that were the case, your dog may in fact not remember his behavior. My friend never really had any recollection of what went on during her seizures. And medication can sometimes help with these kinds of conditions.
 
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