I haven't posted on this forum for quite awhile because some of the regulars on here seem more interested in proving how smart they are than actually helping... But I figure desperate times call for desperate measures, so here goes:
Ninja, my black GSD who is about 3 1/2 years old has developed dangerous aggressive behavior. I have suffered 4 attacks, and I have had two different "trainers" tell me to put him down. (The third didn't think that was necessary, but believes it will be hard work and it will be touch and go.)
The reason the second trainer thought Ninja should be put down wasn't because he exhibited aggressive behavior -- but because he didn't. She spent several hours here, watching us interact with Ninja. She watched Ninja lick my wife in the face. Watched how he instantly obeyed his sit and down commands. Saw how he even did a sit and stay while we hid treats for him to find. After observing this she said if she hadn't seen the photos of my bites, she would think I was making it up. And because there was no behavior issue she could pick up on, that must mean he is unstable and can't be trusted.
But I don't think this is a case of "Sudden Onset Aggression." It isn't that he attacks for no reason at all. Each time there was a trigger -- but the trigger didn't seem to fit the aggression. And each trigger was a surprise.
Now for the long background...
Ninja is a high drive, black GSD, and we've had him since a pup. He's the third Shepherd I've owned (always one at a time). I thought my 2 previous GSDs were high drive, but Ninja makes them look like couch potatoes. That's why a lot of what I now see were huge aggressive warning flags I just attributed to his high drive nature.
He was always a pushy, even as a pup. Sometimes even nipping my wife to get her to play with him. He NEVER took to the leash. Nothing we could do would settle him down. I even left him with a K9 trainer for two weeks. He did great there. He is incredibly smart. When we came to pick him up, and opened our Jeep door, though, he went bonkers (excited, yapping, when he got in the jeep he was biting everything in sight -- but the entire back-end of the Jeep had been ruined by him long before this... Which was why we took him to the trainer in the first place.) He would get in an adrenaline overdrive mode, and would just be bonkers. When the adrenaline rush wore off, he was fine.
After a year and a half, he did settle down a little. He began to really like affection - giving and receiving. When he was younger, he seemed to view petting suspiciously. But he started coming to my wife or me and leaning into us wanting to be pet... putting his paw on our hand while we did it... licking us as we pet him. He especially loves his lower back and rear legs massaged. He is a very active runner. He is usually tight there.
For a year, I thought we had turned a corner. It was when he was 2 ½ years old that I suffered his first attack. It was really strange because he follows me around everywhere. He probably trusts my wife more (she can do things like give him a bath, or wipe mud off of him) but he is my constant shadow. As I write this now, he is on the floor three feet away from me.
On this evening, he was asleep on the floor and I saw what I thought might be a tick on his hip. I asked my wife what it was, she looked over and said she wasn’t sure. While we talked, Ninja looked up at me, through half closed eyes. I assumed he was sleepy... I went over and gently plucked at the item (which was a leaf) and he came up at me, snarling and snapping. I had never seen this before. I told him to sit, which he did – growling the whole time. His eyes were slits and then he started coming up out of the sit, the growl building. I gave the command to sit again, and gestured, and he attacked my hand.
He had three bites on me before I knew what happened. It was a nasty affair after that as I tried to fend him off. I was able to get behind him and grab him by the scruff and hold him (he was standing. I didn't do an Alpha Roll or anything... just held him...) I kept trying to calm him down, but my voice was shaky. Eventually, he relaxed, and all of the rage left. Cautiously I let go of him and he was totally normal. When I was in the bathroom washing my wounds (several deep gashes on both hands –it’s a wonder I didn’t need
stitches) he came in all concerned. He was like two different dogs.
I have never been attacked by my own dog in my life. I didn’t know what to do. Because he was back to normal, we decided to just make sure everyone knew to give him a wide berth if he was sleeping.
The next attack came about three months later. Ninja was lying in the hallway at night – black dog, dark hallway, bad combination... My son (23 years old) went to the bathroom and must have closed some body part in the door. Ninja (who has always been vocal when he is in pain) shot up like he was being killed and pretty soon the yelping turned into that low growl. I didn’t want him attacking my son, so I opened our door and called for him. Ninja came in, and then launched at me! Same thing as before. After he got several shots in, I was able to hold him from behind. This time the rage came and went in waves. I assume that the throbbing from the injury was causing that. But eventually, it all passed, and he was normal dog – wondering why I seemed to be bleeding again.
We should have taken action then, of course. But, we figured that it was pain induced and we can avoid that situation.
The third attack wasn’t on me, it was on my daughter (21 years old). She was trying to leave through the front door, and he was trying to get out past her, and she nudged him back with her knee (something that she had done before with no incident) and he came on her, snarling and trying to bite.
Fortunately, she had a backpack on and was able to keep him away. I came up and pulled him off of her, and held him until she left, but as soon as I let go of him, he turned on me. More gashes and wounds until I was able to get him outside, where he settled down.
Clearly we were out of our depth. I had no idea what to do about this. I was calling friends and asking for trainers. One guy, a K9 Officer for a local police department, was recommended. He did a one hour "evaluation" which basically consisted of him walking Ninja around on lead (after he had me put a muzzle on Ninja) and trying to provoke him to attack -- and Ninja obliged. This convinced the guy that Ninja was unstable because his dog would never react like that. Of course, his dog was a $6000 Dutch Shepherd sold to his department from a breeder that trained him first. But whatever. The point is that we asked "an expert" and he told us to put him down. So that wasn't good.
We visited another trainer who is somewhat famous for saving last chance dogs. We attended (without Ninja... just to observe) his "Green Mile" class for dogs who had been scheduled for euthanasia, before they were rescued. This trainer thought Ninja could be saved by diligent training, but that it would take a full time effort from everyone in the family. He also wanted to have us bring Ninja to his class... but that didn't seem feasible since one of Ninja's adrenaline triggers is a car ride, and the class was over an hour's drive from our house. I wanted to hire him to come and consult privately, but his schedule didn't permit that. So, although I thought this guy probably knew more than anyone else I had talked to, we couldn't get anything to work out.
We tried to work with Ninja on our own as best we could. I modified my work so I didn’t travel much and my wife and I poured a lot of time into him. The relationship was much better. And then, last week, I got bit again.
This time we had been playing outside, and he had gotten into some burrs. They were the really small kind that look like prickly birdseed. I had removed a few but there were a lot left. When we got back inside the house, I removed a couple more, one on his neck. He looked at me funny, so I showed it to him. He seemed OK. But one was right at the edge of his fur, so I went back to get it too... and that apparently was one burr too many, because I got the snarl and snap, and I stopped and told him it was OK, but he wound up and came again.
This time he had his collar on, so I was able to gain control of the situation fairly quickly. Which means my hand was bit some, but not horribly like before. I moved him to the outside, while holding his collar. Every so often, he would try to turn on me, but I would hold him until he settled. Eventually I got him outside, where the Evil dog spell wore off completely, and he was back to normal.
The issue is, when is enough enough? Two out of three "trainers" told me to put him down. Even the one who thought he could be saved told me I could never ever really trust him again. That's a little scary.
After the last bite, we made the painful decision to have him put down. It was ripping us up, both my wife and me, but we didn't see any way out of this. I knew a vet who would come to our house to do the procedure. Usually he does it for sick dogs of course. But we explained the situation and showed the pictures of the wounds and he agreed.
The plan was for us to tranquilize him so he was asleep and then the vet would come in and give him the final shot. I decided to be there with him through it all, which was just breaking my heart -- especially feeding him the meat laced with Acepromazine. We gave him enough to knock out a horse.
When this gorgeous, graceful dog suddenly staggered and and had to be helped to lay down I felt awful. But I knew what was coming was worse. I've been there when GSDs have been put down before. But never like this. Not in their prime, when we had spent the morning having a great time together. He was out in 20 minutes... lips slack... tongue falling out of the mouth. I had seen it before. I texted the Vet. We were good to go.
The Vet pulled into the driveway while I pet Ninja and tried to prepare myself for what was coming next. I had a hole in my heart you could drive a truck through.
Then, heard the faint sound of the Vert's truck door closing outside -- and Ninja woke up. Then he stood up, and staggered to the back door. He tried to bark, but couldn't. He could barely stand. He lay down again, and I went to comfort him and get him to relax. The Vet began to talk to my wife. I could barely hear them, but I don't have a German Shepherd's ears. Ninja's head came back up, and he stood up again. He staggered to the second door. Started pounding it with his nose, shaking it back and forth. I didn't know whether to cry or cheer. It was an incredible display of sheer will.
I texted to the outside and told them what was happening. The Vet asked me to come outside so we could talk. I got Ninja to lay back down and went to the door. When I opened it, somehow, he was through it before I was. Luckily, we have a second door. I had to lead him back inside and get him to sit and stay so I could leave. He did it but didn't like it. The whole time I was outside, he was shaking the doors, wanting out.
Someone was in his driveway. He wanted out.
The thing I know is that Ninja had no idea what was happening, He didn't know I was the one who betrayed him with the laced liver. He didn't know why this vet was there -- he had never seen him before. The only reason he rose up from his death bed and started patrolling was that someone was in his area, and it was his job to protect the home.
It is really, really hard to destroy that.
So, we put off the execution, and I am back trying to come up with something -- anything -- that gives me the hope that I can have the Ninja that protects, without the Ninja that attacks.
If you've made it to here, thanks.
I'll be happy to answer any questions. I am happy to listen to all theories. I am not interested in getting in a discussion with anyone that is designed to show how smart they are, or how they are so much a better owner than I am. I know I have failed Ninja in several ways. I also know that Ninja is unlike any other dog I have ever met. Some of this was bad teaching. Some of this, I believe, is genetics. I am hoping that whatever it is, it can be fixed.
If anyone knows how, God Bless you... I'd love to hear it...
Ninja, my black GSD who is about 3 1/2 years old has developed dangerous aggressive behavior. I have suffered 4 attacks, and I have had two different "trainers" tell me to put him down. (The third didn't think that was necessary, but believes it will be hard work and it will be touch and go.)
The reason the second trainer thought Ninja should be put down wasn't because he exhibited aggressive behavior -- but because he didn't. She spent several hours here, watching us interact with Ninja. She watched Ninja lick my wife in the face. Watched how he instantly obeyed his sit and down commands. Saw how he even did a sit and stay while we hid treats for him to find. After observing this she said if she hadn't seen the photos of my bites, she would think I was making it up. And because there was no behavior issue she could pick up on, that must mean he is unstable and can't be trusted.
But I don't think this is a case of "Sudden Onset Aggression." It isn't that he attacks for no reason at all. Each time there was a trigger -- but the trigger didn't seem to fit the aggression. And each trigger was a surprise.
Now for the long background...
Ninja is a high drive, black GSD, and we've had him since a pup. He's the third Shepherd I've owned (always one at a time). I thought my 2 previous GSDs were high drive, but Ninja makes them look like couch potatoes. That's why a lot of what I now see were huge aggressive warning flags I just attributed to his high drive nature.
He was always a pushy, even as a pup. Sometimes even nipping my wife to get her to play with him. He NEVER took to the leash. Nothing we could do would settle him down. I even left him with a K9 trainer for two weeks. He did great there. He is incredibly smart. When we came to pick him up, and opened our Jeep door, though, he went bonkers (excited, yapping, when he got in the jeep he was biting everything in sight -- but the entire back-end of the Jeep had been ruined by him long before this... Which was why we took him to the trainer in the first place.) He would get in an adrenaline overdrive mode, and would just be bonkers. When the adrenaline rush wore off, he was fine.
After a year and a half, he did settle down a little. He began to really like affection - giving and receiving. When he was younger, he seemed to view petting suspiciously. But he started coming to my wife or me and leaning into us wanting to be pet... putting his paw on our hand while we did it... licking us as we pet him. He especially loves his lower back and rear legs massaged. He is a very active runner. He is usually tight there.
For a year, I thought we had turned a corner. It was when he was 2 ½ years old that I suffered his first attack. It was really strange because he follows me around everywhere. He probably trusts my wife more (she can do things like give him a bath, or wipe mud off of him) but he is my constant shadow. As I write this now, he is on the floor three feet away from me.
On this evening, he was asleep on the floor and I saw what I thought might be a tick on his hip. I asked my wife what it was, she looked over and said she wasn’t sure. While we talked, Ninja looked up at me, through half closed eyes. I assumed he was sleepy... I went over and gently plucked at the item (which was a leaf) and he came up at me, snarling and snapping. I had never seen this before. I told him to sit, which he did – growling the whole time. His eyes were slits and then he started coming up out of the sit, the growl building. I gave the command to sit again, and gestured, and he attacked my hand.
He had three bites on me before I knew what happened. It was a nasty affair after that as I tried to fend him off. I was able to get behind him and grab him by the scruff and hold him (he was standing. I didn't do an Alpha Roll or anything... just held him...) I kept trying to calm him down, but my voice was shaky. Eventually, he relaxed, and all of the rage left. Cautiously I let go of him and he was totally normal. When I was in the bathroom washing my wounds (several deep gashes on both hands –it’s a wonder I didn’t need
stitches) he came in all concerned. He was like two different dogs.
I have never been attacked by my own dog in my life. I didn’t know what to do. Because he was back to normal, we decided to just make sure everyone knew to give him a wide berth if he was sleeping.
The next attack came about three months later. Ninja was lying in the hallway at night – black dog, dark hallway, bad combination... My son (23 years old) went to the bathroom and must have closed some body part in the door. Ninja (who has always been vocal when he is in pain) shot up like he was being killed and pretty soon the yelping turned into that low growl. I didn’t want him attacking my son, so I opened our door and called for him. Ninja came in, and then launched at me! Same thing as before. After he got several shots in, I was able to hold him from behind. This time the rage came and went in waves. I assume that the throbbing from the injury was causing that. But eventually, it all passed, and he was normal dog – wondering why I seemed to be bleeding again.
We should have taken action then, of course. But, we figured that it was pain induced and we can avoid that situation.
The third attack wasn’t on me, it was on my daughter (21 years old). She was trying to leave through the front door, and he was trying to get out past her, and she nudged him back with her knee (something that she had done before with no incident) and he came on her, snarling and trying to bite.
Fortunately, she had a backpack on and was able to keep him away. I came up and pulled him off of her, and held him until she left, but as soon as I let go of him, he turned on me. More gashes and wounds until I was able to get him outside, where he settled down.
Clearly we were out of our depth. I had no idea what to do about this. I was calling friends and asking for trainers. One guy, a K9 Officer for a local police department, was recommended. He did a one hour "evaluation" which basically consisted of him walking Ninja around on lead (after he had me put a muzzle on Ninja) and trying to provoke him to attack -- and Ninja obliged. This convinced the guy that Ninja was unstable because his dog would never react like that. Of course, his dog was a $6000 Dutch Shepherd sold to his department from a breeder that trained him first. But whatever. The point is that we asked "an expert" and he told us to put him down. So that wasn't good.
We visited another trainer who is somewhat famous for saving last chance dogs. We attended (without Ninja... just to observe) his "Green Mile" class for dogs who had been scheduled for euthanasia, before they were rescued. This trainer thought Ninja could be saved by diligent training, but that it would take a full time effort from everyone in the family. He also wanted to have us bring Ninja to his class... but that didn't seem feasible since one of Ninja's adrenaline triggers is a car ride, and the class was over an hour's drive from our house. I wanted to hire him to come and consult privately, but his schedule didn't permit that. So, although I thought this guy probably knew more than anyone else I had talked to, we couldn't get anything to work out.
We tried to work with Ninja on our own as best we could. I modified my work so I didn’t travel much and my wife and I poured a lot of time into him. The relationship was much better. And then, last week, I got bit again.
This time we had been playing outside, and he had gotten into some burrs. They were the really small kind that look like prickly birdseed. I had removed a few but there were a lot left. When we got back inside the house, I removed a couple more, one on his neck. He looked at me funny, so I showed it to him. He seemed OK. But one was right at the edge of his fur, so I went back to get it too... and that apparently was one burr too many, because I got the snarl and snap, and I stopped and told him it was OK, but he wound up and came again.
This time he had his collar on, so I was able to gain control of the situation fairly quickly. Which means my hand was bit some, but not horribly like before. I moved him to the outside, while holding his collar. Every so often, he would try to turn on me, but I would hold him until he settled. Eventually I got him outside, where the Evil dog spell wore off completely, and he was back to normal.
The issue is, when is enough enough? Two out of three "trainers" told me to put him down. Even the one who thought he could be saved told me I could never ever really trust him again. That's a little scary.
After the last bite, we made the painful decision to have him put down. It was ripping us up, both my wife and me, but we didn't see any way out of this. I knew a vet who would come to our house to do the procedure. Usually he does it for sick dogs of course. But we explained the situation and showed the pictures of the wounds and he agreed.
The plan was for us to tranquilize him so he was asleep and then the vet would come in and give him the final shot. I decided to be there with him through it all, which was just breaking my heart -- especially feeding him the meat laced with Acepromazine. We gave him enough to knock out a horse.
When this gorgeous, graceful dog suddenly staggered and and had to be helped to lay down I felt awful. But I knew what was coming was worse. I've been there when GSDs have been put down before. But never like this. Not in their prime, when we had spent the morning having a great time together. He was out in 20 minutes... lips slack... tongue falling out of the mouth. I had seen it before. I texted the Vet. We were good to go.
The Vet pulled into the driveway while I pet Ninja and tried to prepare myself for what was coming next. I had a hole in my heart you could drive a truck through.
Then, heard the faint sound of the Vert's truck door closing outside -- and Ninja woke up. Then he stood up, and staggered to the back door. He tried to bark, but couldn't. He could barely stand. He lay down again, and I went to comfort him and get him to relax. The Vet began to talk to my wife. I could barely hear them, but I don't have a German Shepherd's ears. Ninja's head came back up, and he stood up again. He staggered to the second door. Started pounding it with his nose, shaking it back and forth. I didn't know whether to cry or cheer. It was an incredible display of sheer will.
I texted to the outside and told them what was happening. The Vet asked me to come outside so we could talk. I got Ninja to lay back down and went to the door. When I opened it, somehow, he was through it before I was. Luckily, we have a second door. I had to lead him back inside and get him to sit and stay so I could leave. He did it but didn't like it. The whole time I was outside, he was shaking the doors, wanting out.
Someone was in his driveway. He wanted out.
The thing I know is that Ninja had no idea what was happening, He didn't know I was the one who betrayed him with the laced liver. He didn't know why this vet was there -- he had never seen him before. The only reason he rose up from his death bed and started patrolling was that someone was in his area, and it was his job to protect the home.
It is really, really hard to destroy that.
So, we put off the execution, and I am back trying to come up with something -- anything -- that gives me the hope that I can have the Ninja that protects, without the Ninja that attacks.
If you've made it to here, thanks.
I'll be happy to answer any questions. I am happy to listen to all theories. I am not interested in getting in a discussion with anyone that is designed to show how smart they are, or how they are so much a better owner than I am. I know I have failed Ninja in several ways. I also know that Ninja is unlike any other dog I have ever met. Some of this was bad teaching. Some of this, I believe, is genetics. I am hoping that whatever it is, it can be fixed.
If anyone knows how, God Bless you... I'd love to hear it...