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Help asap!

18K views 163 replies 38 participants last post by  wyoung2153 
#1 ·
Ok, I'm just going to lay the scenario out, I know I'm bound to get some negative comments but please be kind as this has been the most traumatic week I've ever been through.

As some of you saw, last week the boys had an incident with the neighbours schnauzer , who is on the mend and up and walking around now I might add.
The next day (last Saturday) my husband and are were to dog sit my parents two beagles. All of the dogs know each other well, play together and sleep together on a regular basis.
We should have used our brains and not left the boys alone so soon after the chaos from the day before.
We came home to pick the dogs up who had all been left out loose together in the "sideyard" (basically a yard off of the detached garage that the dogs go in and out of through the day while we are gone).
There had been another attack. Now, since no one was home, we don't know what triggered it all we know was the Drew (10 year old beagle) was severely injured. My husband and I rushed her to the emergency clinic, where she said for the remainder of the weekend hooked up to iv fluids and had surgery to repair damage done to her abdomen. I do not need to go into graphic detail of what shape her body was in as I'm sure German Shepherd vs beagle paints the picture.
Drew passed away in Monday after she went into cardiac arrest.
My heart is shattered, not only for the loss of my girl, but that my boy did it.

Now my family has put me in a position that they are basically saying I need to get rid of Wile E (we believe he was the one to do the damage).
They think that now he is going to turn on my household, my kids mainly. I've assured them that I am contacting trainers and the breeder to get the help that I need to manage the dogs. But they don't seem to think that that will matter and want the dog out of my house.

Help.

I have cried for almost a week straight, I laid last night crying as Wile E licked the tears streaming down my face... How can I look at him and think of just... Giving up ... When in this tragic time... He is the one consoling me!?
 
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#2 ·
So sorry about this whole situation and the loss of your senior girl, Drew.


Please, up your management....there is no other way to do this. Freedom is had when earned, no reason to let Wile E have the opportunity to do what he's done in the past.
Only you can decide what other options you have with him, you know who he is, if he does this again, it is on you.
 
#3 ·
omg I'm so sorry........... I wish I had advice other than what you are doing.... get help from someone! It's not up to your family whether or not you keep a dog. It's up to you if you are going to work with him and manage him or not. In the meantime can you keep him in a crate while you are gone?
 
#5 ·
First of all I am sorry for the loss and the situation you are in.
You are very brave to be open and honest and ask for opinions.

The question you need to ask your self is can you manage the dog in future?
If you can honestly say yes then keep the dog. If not then maybe it is better given to someone who can.

My boy has an excellent temperament however I can not control what other dogs do to annoy him etc. so when I sit other dogs I make sure they are never together unsupervised. I mean never.

In saying that a dog with dog aggression doesn't mean it is human aggressive.either way it is somthing you need to decide with yourself and your family.
Good luck
 
#6 ·
Yikes!
I think it goes without saying that neither dog can be trusted around other pooches anymore- since you don't know which dog is the instigator. I don't have children but I wouldn't believe that your dogs would just automatically make the jump from attacking dogs to attacking humans. Whether you keep Wiley E or not, he will need a management strategy from here on out.
We'll keep you and your family in our thoughts.
 
#7 ·
I don't think your parents should have a say in whether you keep your dog... that being said extra training never hurt anyone and constant supervison would be a must if you think its possible he would hurt anyone in the family...has he shown aggression other than these occassions in the household?
 
#9 ·
Never.
The only thing he shows any sort of aggression over is his food with other dogs, he has been like that since we brought him home, they have always eaten in crates so it has never been an issue.

I can't tell you the amount of people that have come into the house that they don't know, and they don't react any different than if they had known the person.
With my kids.... If I didn't trust a dog, they wouldn't be near my kids simple as that.
 
#8 ·
Hey, I'm sorry this has happened. You have several issues to consider, here are some of them. Your future relationship with your parents, your children's emotions and their feelings of safety, grief over Drew, forgiving your dog, your ability to manage Wile E's environment. It could take your children absent-mindedly slipping up with security arrangements to have a future repeat episode.
 
#10 ·
I am so sorry you are going through this.

It sounds like you have already contacted a trainer. And that is good. You need to understand why he is suddenly so dog aggressive. Unless he always has been, and just now realized his power.

Your dogs should never be left alone with other dogs unsupervised, including each other, again.

From here out its management. In the course of a week your dogs have done pretty serious damage to someone else's beloved pets. Such a tragic situation for all involved.

Dog aggression and human aggression are very different things. However, it may come down to WHY the aggression happened. And it may turn out that the instigating factor is something that could be triggered with people as well. Resource guarding, dominance behavior, redirection of anxiety. Any of those scenarios could potentially trigger an attack. So you MUST find a knowledgeable trainer to help you pinpoint the cause.
 
#11 ·
How old are your kids?

My GSD is dog aggressive. I don't know to what extend, because I've never left her unsupervised and off leash around any animal, but twice she has attacked another dog. I was able to pull her off immediately, so I don't know what the end process would be if I left her alone with another dog.

She has never shown the slightest aggression towards my children. I have a 17yr old, 15yr old, 5yr old, and 3yr old. She plays with my teenagers, and kisses my you get girls, but does not like to play or be pet by them. If they try, she just walks away, and they've been taught not to follow. But I don't leave my GSD unsupervised around the children either.

Dog aggressive doesn't automatically = aggressive to everyone/everything. But previous posters are giving you great advice. Can you handle keeping him constantly separated from other dogs, including your other GSD. Can you handle constant supervision around your children. Can you handle not having family come to your home out of fear? Can you handle the backlash of your family being upset that your dog ultimately killed tier beloved pet, and you deciding to keep him?

How are you certain it's Wilie that is the aggressor? If it's not certain, you're going to have to work both dogs the same. Never alone with another animal, never unsupervised around children, meet alone together regardless.
 
#12 ·
How old are your kids?

They are 11 and 7. And have also been taught to respect dogs, and to remember that they are animals and not humans so need to be treated accordingly.
They are also aware of the situation that happened at that there are new rules in the house when it comes to them.
They each had a friend over the other day and respected the fact that the dogs were not to be down where the kids were playing and when the kids came upstairs the dogs when outside, kids went outside dogs came inside. Etc etc
 
#15 ·
You have a dog pack.
I was alarmed on the other thread when people kept saying it was all fine, the other dog wandered in, etc. so basically it's okay for your dogs to attack it.
I understand dogs will "defend" their territory but quite honestly I do not not think they should savage another animal.
My own sheps recognize a "non threat" (another dog wandering by!) from a real threat and react accordingly. They have always done so. The threat is only dealt with to the extent that it actually is. In your case the other dog wasn't even really being a threat and your dogs put it in the vet hospital.
Now you know...too bad you couldn't have realized it before the beagle.
But now that you know you're going to have to make major changes in your life and theirs.
I do not blame your parents for feeling like they do - mismanagement caused this death of their dog :(
Generally if you can't or don't make changes, it will happen again.
 
#18 ·
I do not blame your parents for feeling like they do - mismanagement caused this death of their dog :(
Generally if you can't or don't make changes, it will happen again.
I can only guess that the parents knew what happened with the neighbor dog and still felt comfortable with leaving their dogs. I don't think there was any indication of what would happen and as tragic as it is they could have brought their dogs elsewhere. My point is that no one felt either dog was a threat. They shouldn't put the OP in this position, because everyone had choices. Sadly they weren't the right choices and it ended tragically.
 
#16 ·
It's an awful situation. Why does everyone think it's one dog over the other? I think management is the key. I also don't think that dog aggression means human aggression. Some dogs don't like dogs, some don't like small dogs, etc. one of your guys does not like small dogs. Which dog did your daughter see attack the neighbor dog? A trainer is a good option. I have an instigator and for that reason Batman is in a crate when not supervised. I hate that he is in there, but it's better then him being dead. I doubt he mine will ever change, so it's management. I hope everything works out. Can I assume that your neighbors will watch their dog and not allow it to wander in your yard anymore?
 
#19 ·
We assume it's Wile E over Bob as he was the one that had blood all over his legs when we got their :(

She said that when she went out it was both of the dogs, but that Bob "got off" as soon as she told him to and Wile E was harder to.

Oh yes the neighbour has made it very clear that she will be keeping her dog away from our fence line and that the fence will be "beefed up".

This is all just so awful.

The hardest part I am having is telling my parents, that dog aggression does not = human aggression.

I understand that they are upset, she was my dog too, so I'm hurt on both sides of this.
It sucks so bad to say the least.

Thank you all for your advice it really means a lot
 
#20 ·
Any good trainer can explain to everyone that dog aggression doesn't mean human aggression. Most trainers would even say that dog aggression is more manageable then human aggression. Find a trainer, talk with the trainer, and involve the family so everyone knows how to mansge both dogs. It's really hard to determine which dog even with some evidence:(
 
#21 ·
What an absolutely horrible situation for you to be in. I'm so sorry for you.

You've been given some great advice / info / suggestions.

I have a couple of comments:

1 - dog aggression does NOT equal human aggression BUT I would have him under supervision for a while before I let him be alone with kids ... JUST to be on the safe side. My dog is VERY dog reactive if a dog gets in her face (she pins, no warning / no growl, no nothing). As a result I am very aware of loose dogs and we never do dog parks LOL. A GSD trainer / behaviourist will be able to give you a much better level of understanding on what you are dealing with. But, she's fine with people. She's aloof LOL, but doesn't attack them!

2 - management - not easy and not always fun, but imperative both for HIS safety and any other potential dog

3 - You might not like this comment, and I'm not trying to personally attack you so, please don't take it that way. I completely understand where your parents are coming from (and yes, I love dogs). In their mind your dog(s) have attacked twice, and the second attack resulted in their dog dying. If this was ANY other person's dog, they would be demanding that your dog be put down. If this was a pitbull, it would automatically be put down.

Please, don't think I'm telling you to put your dog down, I'm not ... I'm just trying to get you to see if from THEIR perspective. Likely, they will always be afraid of your dog from now own, regardless of how he interacts with people - it's human nature, especially when they saw how much damage was done to their dog.

My heart goes out to you and your family for the horrible experience you have gone through. I wish you all the best and hope that you can find a trainer / behaviourist to help you manage your dog's aggression.
 
#22 ·
I am not going to sugar coat this.

This is totally your/your husband's fault. You left the dogs together and left, dogs that do not live with you, the day after a dog fight, in which your dogs played a part. You know this. So now you need to explain it to your folks, that it was your fault, it would have never happened, save for the irresponsibility.

Please do not kill your dog because of your error.

Yes, you should work with your dog, and get a good trainer -- you should be doing that regardless. But, do not believe that some trainer is going to wave a magic wand and now your dog will be able to be kenneled with other dogs it does not know while you are gone. That is insane.

You need to spend more time learning who your dog is, what makes him tick, building a bond, but your dog is not a dog that should be let loose with other dogs, and no amount of training is going to change that. Oh, you can change his behavior while you are right there wielding an e-collar or some such junk, but e-collar or not, you will NEVER be able to leave this dog loose with other dogs. I would not leave him loose with another GSD that I owned.

Taking a dog I was entrusted with and leaving them in a kennel with a couple of my own dogs, is unthinkable to me. And, I am talking about dogs who have never had an instance of dog aggression. Coming home to a blood bath must have been terrible, and I am sure you have learned plenty. But, you err in that you are blaming the dog and not yourself.

When we put the blame on others, or on a dog, we are unlikely to make the changes we need to make, because we do not understand where the fault lies. We now look at the dog at some sort of monster. The dog is a DOG. It is not a monster, but it is a critter, not a hairy, illiterate, mute child. When we live with dogs it is totally our responsibility to keep our dogs safe from other dogs and from themselves. Yes we do sometimes leave our dogs together. And generally there are no problems with that, but if there are, we should not blame the dog, or hold it against the dog, because we hold the greater blame.
 
#23 ·
I never once said it WASNT my fault. I've been living with this guilt since the moment I walked up to that yard.
My parents KNEW of the incident that happened the day before with the schnauzer, KNEW that our dogs were all going to be left alone together , and we're in fact the ones to leave the house AFTER us.

I KNOW that it is my fault and I wasn't using my brain when I left those dogs alone together and it is something I must live with forever now. I have to live with the image of my baby girl the way that she was when we came home.
I KNOW that there isn't a magical trainer in the world that can come into my home and wave some hocus pocus over my dogs and all will be better. But there are people that an help... And that's what I came on here for...
I didn't come here asking to be blamed for something that I ALREADY knew was my fault. I came on here to ask for support and advice.

Thank you to those who have given me their honest and humble opinions and advice.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Selzer is right. Most any dog can learn to fight to resolve issues given the right mix of circumstances but to take things as far as your dog did likely means there are core temperament issues that need to be managed. You can't ever let that dog be alone with another dog for any length of time without supervision. You shouldn't really allow dogs to be together unsupervised with any dogs period but doubly so for a dog like that.

It doesn't mean it will turn on you or your kids or snap or whatever. What the dog engaged in was not what I'd call the behavior of a temperamentally stable dog. If it was my dog if I saw it engage in any other aggressive behavior toward another dog in my presence I would come down extremely hard on that dog in a timed manner.

A trainer cannot just fix this dog to the point it will never act aggressively like that again. The dog has learned the behavior the dog has used it to resolve problems and moreover genetically carries a predisposition to that sort of behavior. Take it from me. I own a dog like this. Zebu. When I first got Crank as a puppy for weeks Zebu wanted to kill him and only eventually learned to get a long with him through use of force on my part. I do not allow them to play unsupervised because dogs are dogs and things can and do happen especially since both are un-neutered males. They get on great now but there are times when things get weird and I have to step in. This will always be a dog that must be managed.

What a trainer can do is put the brakes on the aggressive dog vs dog behavior to the point the dog can be managed in the presence of other dogs but the dog could end up going after another dog at anytime even with the inhibitions of past experiences the trainer can put on the dog in place.
 
#25 ·
This is the line I am worried about: "My heart is shattered, not only for the loss of my girl, but that my boy did it." and this one: "How can I look at him and think of just... Giving up ... When in this tragic time... He is the one consoling me!?"

Dog aggression does not equal people aggression. Unless there are indicators that he wants to attack children, this incident does not mean he will. But it is an incident that is serious, and I can understand your family's concerns.

Assure them that you will never leave the boy out again with other dogs when you are gone. You will crate him or kennel him alone in a garage or basement. Sometimes family makes unreasonable demands, and we have to respect where they are coming from, but we cannot let them force us to do something we will certainly regret.
 
#27 ·
I may not be the popular opinion here, but I would never think of leaving dogs together like that unattended, and have a hard time feeling sympathy for you when another dog had to suffer the consequences because of irresponsible ownership. What support could you possibly be looking for? There is no justification as to why another dog ended up being killed by another, other than human error. There's no sugar coating it and I wouldn't expect any support if I were you.

A dog who has killed another dog is a massive liability. I cannot express my seriousness in that sentiment. This never should have happened and if you are not 100% sure that it won't happen again, then you should absolutely place the dog elsewhere that it can be managed. This post really made me sick to my stomach..
 
#28 ·
It's not like this dog has ever showed signs of killing the beagle. They have been around each other since the beginning. There is no way you, I or the OP could have known or even suspected this would happen. Yes this dog did damage to another dog right before this, but that wasn't a dog the dogs were around all the time, it wandered on the property. My hope and I am sure everyone else would hope their dogs would not seriously attack a dog that wanders on to the property, but I'm not so sure we all an be positive it wouldn't be an issue. The question here isn't who is at fault, the OP accepts the blame, the OP does not want the dog to pay the price. The family on the other hand are feeling quite the opposite and are blaming the dog. I'm sure the OP would not have left the dogs together if they even suspected an issue. These are family dogs. The OP has started three threads on this and all of the sudden people are coming out of the woodwork. Obviously no one can see the dog and I think problems like this should never be addressed online. This is something that needs to be dealt with immediately in person. I can't imagine being in this situation but it's a very real possibility whenever there is more then one dog in the home. It's a hard lesson to learn and it's even harder when it's within the home and was never expected.
 
#30 ·
The OP knows that putting the dogs together so soon after the chaotic fight the day before wasn't a good idea, in hindsight. But it is true nonetheless. There are hormones or pharamones or some such stuff that takes a little time to come down after a fight. So the next day was way too soon to have the dogs that do not necessarily live together together.

In the midst of a fight a dog can transfer their attack onto another dog or person -- misdirected aggression. And this is where a child could be in danger. If the dogs are going at it and a child gets in between, trying to stop them, then a kid can get hurt. Management is key, and if adults are around when the family dogs are together, children should not be in any danger.
 
#31 ·
Can happen to anyone. I've had trainer friends who's dogs have been left alone for an hour or two never had issues before and they come back to dogs that have torn each other up.

I know people who have had crisis moments like this and that is the reason they became dog trainers, to make amends for things like this.

Take the lesson learn from it and don't repeat the mistakes again. Just don't blame the dog. Dogs are not moral beings. The dog was being a dog. It isn't evil or a bad seed or anything like that. It has genetic predispositions, it learned fighting was an option to resolve issues in the past and then when it was left to its own devices it went and resolved an issue in a tragic way.
 
#33 ·
Sure, it can happen to anyone who decides to leave however many dogs completely unattended in a yard together. It happens in groups of dogs who are attended, so that's no surprise to me.

What I don't understand is the cry for sympathy. OP knew the options were to get a trainer or place the dog. But to come on here digging for sympathy? Why bother..
 
#37 ·
My dog killed another dog. We were at work. She was in a kennel with her litter. The neighbor's kids crossed our pasture with their hunting dog. Mine climbed the 6' chain link and killed their dog twice her size. Climbed back in the kennel with her pups. The dog wasn't dead when we got home. I offered to pay vet bills. They said no, the kids had to be taught a lesson so the dog bled out. (Frickin Texas).

She was not a problem for the next 9 years unless another dog was attacking her first. Then she was a problem. Dog law.
 
#40 ·
Well, all the "hard truths" have been well stated...so we should move on from there:

:)

In order to do that... first we have to know "if" the dog is staying put??

The attacking the kids thing is unlikely a dog that does not uh care for other dogs is not likely to attack humans.

Yes, it's now a dog killer! Not a lot of rescues are going to be eager to take that on! Steps should have been taken way before this happened! And sorry I don't recall the other three threads?? Was I in them???

But that aside as "Cesar" says...dog live in the here and now! and as Baillif said "don't blame the dog..."Part of that "process" is for the OP to let it go!

And that's not going to be easy! But sigh...like many things I have done with dogs to "accidently proof them" letting go is something I had to do with Rocky...he gave Gunther a very hard time and Gunther passed before I was able to "fix" the issue!!:mad:

I had a lot of resentment towards Rocky...but he was still with me and Gunther was gone. I had to let the anger and resentment go!:(

It's not easy but "if" you keep the dog...that is step one!
 
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