German Shepherds Forum banner

Help asap!

18K views 163 replies 38 participants last post by  wyoung2153 
#1 ·
Ok, I'm just going to lay the scenario out, I know I'm bound to get some negative comments but please be kind as this has been the most traumatic week I've ever been through.

As some of you saw, last week the boys had an incident with the neighbours schnauzer , who is on the mend and up and walking around now I might add.
The next day (last Saturday) my husband and are were to dog sit my parents two beagles. All of the dogs know each other well, play together and sleep together on a regular basis.
We should have used our brains and not left the boys alone so soon after the chaos from the day before.
We came home to pick the dogs up who had all been left out loose together in the "sideyard" (basically a yard off of the detached garage that the dogs go in and out of through the day while we are gone).
There had been another attack. Now, since no one was home, we don't know what triggered it all we know was the Drew (10 year old beagle) was severely injured. My husband and I rushed her to the emergency clinic, where she said for the remainder of the weekend hooked up to iv fluids and had surgery to repair damage done to her abdomen. I do not need to go into graphic detail of what shape her body was in as I'm sure German Shepherd vs beagle paints the picture.
Drew passed away in Monday after she went into cardiac arrest.
My heart is shattered, not only for the loss of my girl, but that my boy did it.

Now my family has put me in a position that they are basically saying I need to get rid of Wile E (we believe he was the one to do the damage).
They think that now he is going to turn on my household, my kids mainly. I've assured them that I am contacting trainers and the breeder to get the help that I need to manage the dogs. But they don't seem to think that that will matter and want the dog out of my house.

Help.

I have cried for almost a week straight, I laid last night crying as Wile E licked the tears streaming down my face... How can I look at him and think of just... Giving up ... When in this tragic time... He is the one consoling me!?
 
See less See more
#91 ·
People on here have dogs that kill rabbits, raccoons and squirrels that enter their yard and it's not looked down on, in fact most shrug it off as prey drive. None of these things are a threat either but it's ok as long as it's not a dog? I would be horrified if my dog mauled or killed anything, but at the same time it is not only their home, it's their property, which extends to the yard. I spend lots of time in my yard, do I can completely see how guarding the inside transfers to the yard. The kids play out there, we cook out there, and we eat out there. I have done everything possible to keep all creatures out. I wasn't counting on baby birds falling from a tree, but even then both Apollo and Midnite found one and did not attempt to kill them. They indicated they were there by pawing and barking at the little guys. I'm not so sure it would be the same for a larger animals.

I can not stand it when dogs or kids are on the other side of the fence bothering a dog, they are looking for trouble and it should never happen. It is frustrating for me to see, I can't imagine how the dog feels
 
#92 ·
This is strictly MY opinion and I have no University degree or research papers to back it.

I do expect my dog to differentiate between rabbits (prey animal) and dogs. I would not be and have not been upset when my dog catches and eats a rabbit. Coyotes hunt prey animals aka rabbits, chickens etc. without hunting and eating each other.
I don't allow my dog to decide who comes into my home or yard. I would have failed should my dog kill another dog.....ever. I don't believe dogs taunt each other. They want to go or not so learning to read your dog is our responsibility.
 
#93 ·
Oh wow people. I live in the same city as Candace, and although we have not met, I have known her trainer since I was a child. Her trainer has 30 years of dog training experienced. She owns rottweilers and pit bulls, and her pitties are all rescue dogs. Trust me, this lady knows dog aggression and how to handle it. Why is everyone questioning this?
And who's to say Wile E is actually dog aggressive? From what I have read the dog sounds very insecure and fearful of dogs outside of his comfort zone. He attacked dogs he knows and dogs he has a good advantage over, and it was all in his comfort zone. I would say this is more of a dog who is nervous about his world, and takes leadership in the small situations he feels comfortable in. Not excusing him, and honestly I'd rather deal with an all out dog aggressive dog, but not once has this dog shown aggression to other dogs in all of the classes it has been in.
I think he does need to be taken out, he needs to gain confidence, he needs to feel secure in his owner that she will deal with situations. I personally would be muzzling him in places like Petsmart because the dog was clearly stressed and you don't know how he would react and you can't control the other dogs. Muzzling him makes the owner feel more secure and will then make the dog feel more secure. But he definitely needs to be leaving the property and having training sessions outside of his comfort zone.
"In accordance with the standards of the Animal Behaviour Society a certified animal behaviorist must have at least a Masters of Science in either Ethology, Psychology, or Applied Animal Behavior, must have apprenticed for an extended period under an applied animal behaviourist certified by the Animal Behaviour Society, and must have conducted a significant amount of peer reviewed behavioral research." For the record, the only 'behaviourists' we have access to here are from out of town, charge at least $400 per visit (plus travel time) and are purely science based. So basically you will have someone come into your house, fit your dog for a muzzle, fit it for a gentle leader, watches how it interacts in your home, teaches you classical conditioning and basically writes your dog off if there are serious problems. Basically you pay a lot of money to be told if your dog is dominant or submissive. For most dogs around here with serious issues, an actual behaviourist is not the way to go.
 
#99 ·
Oh wow people. I live in the same city as Candace, and although we have not met, I have known her trainer since I was a child. Her trainer has 30 years of dog training experienced. She owns rottweilers and pit bulls, and her pitties are all rescue dogs. Trust me, this lady knows dog aggression and how to handle it. Why is everyone questioning this?
.
Maybe because she told OP to take her dog to Petsmart?

If she owns such great and well-trained dogs, why is she not having OP work with her own dogs instead of sending her client to a place where there are so many out of control, untrained ones, handled by clueless owners?
 
#96 ·
Candice - I have a male GSD who will not allow any other dogs on his property. I have no doubt he would kill them. He will not tolerate any of the other male dogs (intact or not) within his own pack. I manage him.

He is totally an aloof dog and will ignore dogs / people when off property. When on property, he'll check out people and then sit back and observe. That is his way.

He isn't a monster. He doesn't eat children. He doesn't attack us in our sleep. He is more difficult to manage than my other dogs. And that's OK. I've always been hyper vigilant with him because he's an aloof dog.
 
#98 ·
You post on a public forum for advice/help, you don't get to choose how those people are going to respond.

Your dog attacked 2 dogs, injuring both, causing the death of one. In your first thread, you were given advice to keep the seperated, to not allow them alone with other dogs. A week later, another attack.

Now you have people telling you taking that dog into a very public place with dogs that may or may not give your dog "attitude" or "a look," and you defend your actions.

Obviously the dog needs to be worked, along side and with other dogs. In a CONTROLLED environment. Petsmart is the least controlled environment I could think of. At least my local petsmart, and others I have been in in other states, are chalk full of annoying, yapping, uncontrolled dogs. Sure, they are leashed, but most aren't controlled.

I find it hard to believe a respected and experienced trainer advised you to take your dog into petsmart. And if she did, and didn't accompany you, I'd be questioning just how respectable of a trainer she is.

Your dog may have been fine around other dogs in your presence in the past, but his behaviors have changed suddenly and drastically with the last two attacks. It's not far fetched to think his behavior could just as suddenly and drastically change with you present and not on guard for it.

And if your trainer owns so many breeds, why is she not working your dog with her dogs instead of sending you into petsmart?

My dog is dog aggressive. To any other breed than GSD's. She's happy go lucky around them. But that doesn't mean I say go for it and let her go romp and play with them because she has never tried to attack one. And I certainly don't take her into public places with other dogs to let her work it out on her own. I just got her evaluated, and her trainer is going to work on her with these issues in a controlled environment, with dogs that have solid calm temperaments, with both of us present. That seems, to my unprofessional opinion, the sign of a respectable experienced trainer. If she ever suggested I take her to petsmart or a dog park, if thank her for her time and send her on her way.

You are being irresponsible in a very dangerous situation. And we've all read the posts were you being irresponsible has caused two attacks. So don't be surprised when we tell you that taking him to petsmart is another irresponsible idea.
 
#104 ·
Here's how I think about this: the dog was ticked enough at another dog to kill it.

Two deadly attacks-- that is kind of like a bell you cannot unring.(The only reason the schnauzer is not dead is because the schnauzer got lucky.)

I do not think that anything can turn this dog into one that is OK with other dogs.
If he was stressed enough to kill another dog, no matter what the reason, then I would think that I should keep him away from other dogs.
I think it's better for him, better for all the dogs out there, and probably better for the owner, who won't have to face another scary situation every time the dog gets exposed to another.
 
#106 ·
The OP never said anything about play dates with other dogs. 30 ft away from other dogs is not going kill any dog. How do you suppose the OP takes the dog for a walk for exercise? There isn't really much they can do about loose dogs or stupid owners that let their dog approach other dogs. What is so different from going to Petsmart on a day it's not crowded versus walking down the street?"or even going to the vet for shots? Dogs are everywhere and along with that comes stupid owners. Yes this dog has to be managed and no it should not be allowed left alone with other dogs, but you can't keep a dog in a bubble, because then you have a dog you can take absolutely no where. The dog might or might not ever understand the right or wrong way of handling stress, but to let him to just sit at home with no exposure is not doing the dog any good. It's a vicious circle, I've bern there. I've been not allowed and kicked out of classes. Nothing was going to change that except for me going out and exposing my dog to the things he reacted to, finding out the triggers, and then working on them. You can't just sit back and do nothing. This is coming from someone that busted their butt with a reactive dog. It was not something that I wanted to continue. I knew what my dogs general temperament was and I tuned into him. The OP is doing the same thing.
 
#107 · (Edited)
That is why you put on a muzzle, and do your best to go out at times when there are as few possibilities of an encounter as you can have.

You don't go and seek encounters. That, to me, is crazy.
What I would do is make sure that the dog is not triggered. Nobody needs for him to be triggered.
And what would be the purpose of dragging him around exposing him to something that he's obviously extremely uncomfortable with?

You have to work with what you have, and manage that.
 
#109 · (Edited)
My take on it is this. Dogs learn for the most part through operant and classical conditioning and are very contextual. Aggression/fighting, confidence, fear, anger are all behaviors or reactions that generally occur under a specific context. Obedience also happens under specific context.

There is a measure of bleed-over of behaviors from one context to the next but it is for the most part unpredictable as to how strong that bleed-over will be and in which circumstances it will occur or not occur.

For example. Me eating before my dog, or going through doors before my dog or making my dog wait to go through doors before I do will not make the dog obey me more when it comes to things like walking loose on the leash or not barking at dogs that pass me by when I am walking the dog on the leash. It will not make the dog more confident around other dogs when I am there because I am more "alpha".

That kind of thing does not bleed over and doing those things won't affect the dogs behavior under other circumstances. NILF or 2 week shut downs or whatever will not get rid of the aggression against other dogs under whatever circumstances it was happening under. It does not address specific behaviors under an operant or classical conditioning setting.

Any trainer that thinks it does brings their credibility into serious question.

As for socialization with dogs. That wont be enough either at this point. Your dog has gotten into two serious fights in a fairly short amount of time. It has learned fighting is a solution to problems with smaller dogs. You can't get the dog to unlearn that. You can punish it and suppress it if you were around to see it, but in doing that you put small dogs at risk and given the dog's history that isn't a good risk to take.

Are you willing to put small dogs at risk to suppress the behavior in your dog? If the answer is no then manage your dog, because I'm telling you from experience that is the only way to get it done with any kind of reliability and it isn't worth it. Even if it "works" you are still in a position where you have to constantly watch that dog in the presence of other dogs because that attack behavior can resurface at ANY TIME. You can suppress the behavior through punishment, in some dogs maybe even eliminate it altogether but how do you know if you suppressed or eliminated it? You don't.

If you miss the signs and the dog engages in that behavior that would be unfair to any animal you put the dog with. Very very very unfair.

Zebu wanted to kill Crank when he was a puppy. I had to get them to get along through force. Zebu would get aggressive and I would punish him with the proper timing and intensity to get him to realize that aggression against Crank was NOT a productive option. I had to stay on top of them for weeks and manage their interactions to keep them positive. I haven't had a real issue in almost a year, but there have been times where maybe they get playing a little too hard or there's a weird picture around a person or a resource or a door entry way where Zebu will act aggressively and I have to be there to check him before it escalates. It takes active monitoring. I do not leave them alone together even after months with no issues because I know what could happen if I do.

A trainer can put inhibition on the dog to engage in that behavior. A trainer can also teach you how to maintain that inhibition but regardless of this you are having to manage and monitor that dog. It isn't something you can "cure."
 
#119 · (Edited)
My take on it is this. Dogs learn for the most part through operant and classical conditioning and are very contextual. Aggression/fighting, confidence, fear, anger are all behaviors or reactions that generally occur under a specific context. Obedience also happens under specific context.
Just to clarify the "obvious" once a dog has gotten the opportunity to practice, the bad behaviour, it's harder to deal with then a dog that has not learned that attacking is an option??

I guess I'm actually 50/50 here Gunther (BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) never given an opportunity to attack another dog (he did slap down a Boxer puppy,once at 'Petco!:eek:) but no harm done, I was a tool. :blush:

Rocky GSD...yeah, Rank drive issues, actual attacks happened, never got the chance to fix that one.:(

So I kinda know the answer but asking anyway.

Oh and...we are not dealing with a newbie here and the first post was "not" my dog attacked two dogs...what do I did?? OP gets it and she's trying to move on! Constant browbeating does not really serve the "greater good!" :)
 
#110 ·
Arriving late to this, but did want to make a couple of comments.

On the question of management... my last GSD had human
aggression. I had adopted her at about age 5, and only had
about 5 years of constant vigilance. It is really a rough row
to hoe, let me tell you. Just a couple of seconds inattention
can bring disaster. You have a headache, the phone rings,
your daughter has the flu... just about anything can be just
long enough and you can never go back, You possibly risk
a law suit, loss of insurance, loss of home... it's a lot to
contemplate. I for one, would never do it again. Human
beings make mistakes. I hated the gnawing in my gut and the
worry.

As to the Pet Smart trip, I will only say that at a lot of my
trips through (with or w/o dog in tow) there have been kids
screaming running around corners or kids and adults dropping
leashes accidentally and dogs taking off, a number of things
nearly every time. Unless you take your boy muzzled, he very
well could be startled/scared enough to attack again and cause
further damage.

I'm very sorry, I well remember how tough this is, although mine
was HA and not DA. I do hope for the best, whatever you
decide.
 
#111 ·
The first fight your dog was in was a small dog that attacked your dog, correct? This happened just a few days before the second fight, correct?

This second fight, that resulted in the death of the Beagle, happened when you weren't home and your two dogs were alone with your folks two dogs, correct? The Beagle died due to significant injuries to it's belly, correct?
 
#112 ·
The first fight your dog was in was a small dog that attacked your dog, correct? This happened just a few days before the second fight, correct?



This second fight, that resulted in the death of the Beagle, happened when you weren't home and your two dogs were alone with your folks two dogs, correct? The Beagle died due to significant injuries to it's belly, correct?

The first one was the small dog that got into our yard.

And yes correct about the second. She was at the clinic recovering from her injuries when she went into cardiac arrest.

Both times the dogs were unsupervised.
 
#115 ·
Thank you Bailiff! "Bleed-over" is a great term to use to help explain.

A muzzle is certainly a form of management. But, I have a concern with this. If I muzzle my dog aggressive dog and she encounters another loose dog aggressive dog, she will not be able to defend herself. That concerns me as I am not confident that I could break up a fight without help and there may not be any.

That would not be fair to my dog. Catch 22.
 
#118 ·
That is a reasonable question!

The answer is "protect" your dog! If you have to "break up a fight" crap has gone badly wrong!

If one needs to use a muzzle and where they "normal" walk is in an area with a high risk of random dog encounters, then the most reasonable course of action is to go somewhere else for training purposes.
 
#126 ·
Sue your last paragraph is right on the money.A dog's temperament evolves over time as they mature and they react differently towards other dogs and people.Sometimes it happens so slowly it can go unnoticed.
 
#127 · (Edited)
I do not agree with exposing these dogs to unknowing people and their dogs. One misstep and a dog is seriously injured all while the owner is aware their dogs were capable.

I am also not trying to berate or admonish the OP. It's just so very important that they know what they own and manage it. No excuses, no exceptions, plain management.
 
#128 ·
I thought my comments included advice, but I guess it wasn't very clear. And yes, I can come of as brash to people who don't know me. I tend to speak bluntly and very straight forward. So I will make this my last post of this thread, and wish the OP all the luck in the world.

Have your trainer work with your dog with other dogs with the proper temperament in a controlled environment. Not in an uncontrolled environment like a petsmart or dog park.

Avoid encounters with other dogs in uncontrolled environments.

Crate and rotate your two GSD's when you are not there to supervise to avoid any issues that could very easily arise between the two of them. They may be best friends now, but one dog has proven he can't be trusted around another dog alone.

Don't allow them out in the yard unsupervised.

Use your trainer. OP never verified if it was her trainer that told her to go to petsmart, but I think it's a safe bet OP made that call on her own.

Lower you expectations of him being "cured." It's a dog that will need constant management.

I'm certainly no expert, I've got a GSD with issues a mile long. I'm just offering common sense advice. And advice I've received from others here with my GSD, as well as advice from the trainer that will be working with mine. My apologies for the proverbial "beating of a dead horse."
 
#130 ·
It seems like now that the dust has settled, that most agree on lifelong management. I got lost on the prey predator stuff. I have seen multiple dogs gang up on one when left to their own devices, even their own pack members. I'm not sure what triggers this to happen, maybe predator or prey "blind frenzy".

Is sounds as though I am going to have to manage my dog in the same way and lifelong. I have been really watching her to try to figure out how to stifle but she shows the same exact behavior with prey (squirrels) or predator (other dogs). Hair up on neck and also up just above her but. Tail up and out of her head.

But I guess in the long run, after reading these posts, it doesn't really matter. If it can't really ever be trained out and only managed, and yet, still unpredictable then what kind of training would the op receive? Would it be just to know how to correct the behavior at that moment to stop things from progressing?
 
#131 ·
Bob Barker - Look at this! 13 pages of information ... some helpful, some not! I'll add my other two cents:

My dog was attacked 5 times in a 6 month period - every time we were on leash, either walking or she was running beside me while I was biking (I bike slow LOL)

She was 18 months - 2 years when these attacks happened.

Kyleigh is now 4 years old and I have got her behaviour / obedience to a point where as long as a dog is NOT in her face, we are fine. I can walk her past any dog losing it's stuff at her in the back yard, across the street, etc. and she doesn't bat an eye.

The second a dog is in her face, all bets are off ... she doesn't even "assess" if the dog's a threat or not - she's on it.

It took me almost a year to get her to this point, and I worked my butt off.

My words to you are those of encouragement - you screwed up. Yeah, well, we are all human, and the only way we become better people is to learn from our mistakes and move forward and don't repeat them. After the experiences you've just had, I highly doubt you're going to make the same mistake!

With the proper training (and by this I mean ROCK SOLID / BOMB PROOF obedience) and learning your dog's thresholds and ACCEPTING them you can still have a great relationship with your dog. BUT, it will take time, patience and huge amounts of effort.

I changed a lot of the stuff that I was doing with Kyleigh (we were doing a lot of "group" stuff where other dogs were around in close quarters).

We signed up for scent detection, she loved that ... I do urban agility with her - she rocks at that and I upped her training to levels I don't need, but are good for her brain.

Here's a good chuckle for you - I was working her in a field with long distance obedience. I put her in a down and walked off about 150 feet. I called her to me. About half way I said STOP. She stopped. I said DOWN, she dropped. I called her to me again. STOP / LEFT / COME / STOP / COME / STOP / GO RIGHT / STOP / COME / DOWN / COME / STOP / GO BACK.

We were having a blast - she was pumped and a couple of times she was even barking at me - as if to say, would you just let me come to you!!!

I had her come to me and put the leash back on her and then I hear a voice from about 20 feet away ... WOW, that is awesome!

I turned around and there's a cop on a bicycle. My first reaction was CRAP, she was off leash LOL

The cop was super impressed with her! And my aloof dog? She was such a tramp LOL ... She went up to him to sniff and just dropped on the ground and rolled over for him (I was super surprised - she only does that to the furnace guy, me and my dad!)

I didn't get in heck for not having her on leash ... and he asked if I could do it again and could he tape it! So I did ... I don't know who had more fun! Him and I watching her perform like an ace ... or her with that extra step of "look at me ... see how smart I am" while I ran her through everything.

So, chin up! There's always hope! BUT, you might have to change your views on what you can / cannot do with him anymore. In the end, you might have more fun doing things with him that you wouldn't have thought of doing in the first place!
 
#138 ·
You wack the **** out of the attacking dog with it, and pray it's not a ring dog - aka - trained to attack (bite) someone wielding a stick or whip and "hitting" the dog with it. YouTube videos of bite work, the bait person is normally wielding a stick or whip.
 
#140 ·
I've never had to result to actually hitting a dog!

By and large in my "experience" they are looking at your dog and don't even see the human!

But assuming we are talking about Pitts...sigh. By and large they are pretty impervious to being hit by a stick!

Jamming an object in front of them "disrupts" there planned trajectory and gives there "brain" an opportunity to catch up with there chosen course of action/direction!

Hitting them with anything short of a baseball in the head...good luck with that! It would be more like "man that really ticked me off!!!

BUll Mastiff/APBT/Lab mix owner here and yes of course "my" dog did not go around attacking People and Dogs!

But yeah the numbers are pretty bad as regards Pitts! :(
 
#141 ·
So, earlier today, because of Chip's suggestion. I put a bid on a really cool walking stick. It has a brass 5" Eagle's head handle with a steel cane. I'm still trying to picture how I'm suppose to hold back my 75lb young GSD with one hand while using the cane with the other. I thought about stepping on her leash to use it as leverage to keep her with me, but is that a bad move? Her lunge could knock me on my but which would not be a good defensive posture:eek:
 
#143 ·
I'm still trying to picture how I'm suppose to hold back my 75lb young GSD with one hand while using the cane with the other. I thought about stepping on her leash to use it as leverage to keep her with me, but is that a bad move? Her lunge could knock me on my but which would not be a good defensive posture:eek:
Awww there is the rub!

The goal is...you tell your dog to stay! You step in front and deter the intruder! You want to be dealing with that dog and not your own!

Rocky did that "extremely" well eight years ago under pressure from two charging dogs!!

This just in!
Just now, Rocky is getting sloppy! Daughter in law came over from Ca. We went on a walk, I neglected my usually head up eyes and ears open, look and scan advise! Open garage door, which I "advise" people to look for! Pitt mix "of course" came charging! Rocky did not stay behind me, he did not advance but he stood beside me to see what was up!:mad:

He stood next to me and seemed to be non perturbed by the other dog in his face, barking!! Owner was asking me if Rocky's was friendly!!

I don't care,was my retort, get your dog! No harm done no fighting...I'm just not happen with him (Rocky) at the moment!

I will say that he was off leash, the other dog charged and my experience with Rocky has shown me that he is much better disciplined on leash than off!

In eight years and five dogs, that "is" as close as a dog has gotten to one of mine! Well OK there was the puppy spin with a charging Pitt 14 years ago!

Aww Pitts...gotta luv'em! :wild:
 
#142 ·
I am not worried about anything but Pits. And it's only because of their latch on and don't let go style. I am not concerned with other dogs because they rarely go to extremes and last that long. I think that my dog and I can repel any other breed without much damage to either dog.

You might have read last month when I posted about carrying an ice pick with me. This morning I found an umbrella with an 8"stainless steel blade inside. I understand suddenly opening an umbrella in front of an approaching dog can break the cycle. I really like the umbrella. But, there are those that think that my thoughts are cruel. I think of them as protecting my dog's life, should it ever come to the one in a million extreme.
 
#148 ·
For you..I'll try! opps I meant to use (.):D

But seriously that time they were needed. (Hmm this is hard to do.) But, his dog came out of "nowhere" charging us. I was between that dog and Rocky and Rocky stepped from behind me to beside me.

I was not happy at that, so I'm watching both dogs, Rocky is standing by me smiling,the other dog is charging and barking and the guy is "shouting is your dog friendly???

The dogs were fine, I was ticked off! I said I don't know get your dog. I was not happy, that was the first time a dog I don't know got that close. Well third actually but that was a while ago and Rocky stopped that one when I fell, another story I've told before.

I'm not particularly "friendly" when I feel my dogs are under threat but yeah Rocky was cool, yet again under pressure.

Me not so much, I tend to meet aggression with aggression, most likely "not" the way to go but it is what it is.

If people think your on the edge as it were...they are more likely to keep a tighter rein on there dog. That dog has been there eight years and this was a first.

But as I tend to say on occasion, "I offer sound advise...I don't necessarily follow it." :)
 
#147 ·
The next dog that comes at Lillie with intent to kill her
like the one did last year, is getting his skull cracked as
hard and as many times as I can until he's laid out. I
can't count on a nearby contractor pulling out an eight
foot long 2 X 4 and doing it for me.

Some dogs might be deterred by an umbrella, or throwing
treats in front of them or whatever I've heard suggested before
but this one definitely would not have and I'm not taking a
chance ever again.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top