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Aggression and stuff about my dog

22K views 284 replies 26 participants last post by  glowingtoadfly 
#1 ·
From the other thread

Gtf, it wasn't a club that evaluated him. I didn't go there yet. I asked my trainer to eval him. My trainer competes nationally and I'd say def knows what he's doing. He also hosts a club though not taking any members now (or didn't want my dog)

In any case, I'm having a hard time dismissing what he says. I might still go for the eval and the club already told me they Will take him. They said any dog can do some parts. It is expensive, $500 down and $100 a month. So if anything, I'd be more inclined to ignore their eval because they'd tell me things I want to hear to get me to join.

My trainer isn't gaining or losing anything.

But my dog has nerve issues. There is no way around it. I can dance around and make excuses but there's no reason for him to bark at people. He barks at someone almost every day. He barks at every dog.

My trainer saw him react to a dog and said It was defense, so fear but I already knew that.

I'm almost sure he reacts to people out of fear too.

The reason I'm trying to understand what drives his reactions is because I don't want to punish fear. I'm confused.

Also, I can't correct him hard enough. Once he goes into a fit he doesn't feel anything.

Even if he wants to sniff something really bad or pull - I can yank all I want, total ignore.


If he's fear aggressive or insecure then where's this hardness coming from? How does he take all this pain and ignore it? Or he can be nervy and hard at the same time?


I'm soo confused if it's not obvious


One more thing. I know I should catch the reaction before it happens (optimally) but since I've missed a few I think now I might be popping him thinking he was about to react and he wasn't.
So unfair again
 
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#126 ·
I wouldn't stim the dog every time you say no or he does something wrong. I would teach only one or two commands using Ecollar and stim him when he disobeys those. If he only gets stimmed for breaking a sit or down then it's clear to him why he's getting stimmed.

I just would never stim for actually being reactive. That has the potential to end badly.

If you're completely honest with yourself then you'd understand that you'll always have to manage a nervy dog. It's never going to be 100% fixed and trustworthy in public.
 
#127 ·
I figured it a while ago. After everything I saw him do I will never trust him all the way.
I just feel bad that he goes through these fits.

And yes, I'm trying to avoid using ecollar. Not my thing. I have it on for recall because I can't take the chance of him not coming back fast enough. I was hoping to not use it for anything else.

I will think of a behavior I can ask for when dogs pass by.
I don't know if I want to make him sit. That's asking too much of him. Setting him up to fail and then stimming for it.

He does well if I can walk with a bunch of turns when dogs are around. so heel would be the ideal command but it's not reliable enough to stim for.
 
#129 ·
No. I haven't noticed but I will check tonight. We are going out with his husky friend and they wear each other every time. I will watch him afterwards

He barks indoors but not a lot. At one of the cats (worse than dogs, he wants to kill him), turtle and people ringing bell.

But this might be a good idea thank you. And it will help us when he barks at 2am.
 
#130 ·
Lol, yours barks at the turtle! Ha! We have a turtle here too, and originally my dog did bark when the turtle clanked his shell against the glass. Now he realizes this is a normal everyday sound, thankfully. But that would be a great place for you to start :) And definitely watch him after the husky playdate, because I'll almost promise you (not quite, don't want to break it, lmao) that you'll see a different behavior. I hope so, anyway.
 
#131 ·
That would be really nice. Can't wait to see what happens. I do doubt it. He reacts in defense and I thought no matter how tired a dog defense drive doesn't die down.

He'd bark at mine when she came up to eat. She's trained to eat on her basking area, out of her tank.
We moved the tank so now he doesn't see her. Also wants to kill my cat. He's leashed in the house outside my room.
Fun stuff goes on here lol

ETA and we Wil be teaching quiet. Though same problem. He rarely just barks. He reacts. I'd say most of his reactions are in defense. So same problem, doesn't see or hear me.
 
#132 · (Edited)
@Lalachka – If I were you, I would take my focus off of “fixing” a specific problem and focus my efforts/attention on building confidence in the dog and on building a foundation of consistency and trust between you and your dog.

You sound like you have been all over the place in terms of training techniques/strategies/mindset. I do not think that has been helpful to you or your dog.

Again, if I were you, I would enroll the dog in an Agility Class or perhaps a Rally-O class. These types of classes, I think, do a great job of building communication and connection between you and your dog in a way that focuses on what the dog is doing well vs. what the dog is doing wrong. I believe that these types of classes help to build trust between handler and dog and that trust, once established, carries over to many aspects of everyday life.
 
#134 ·
@Lalachka – If I were you, I would take my focus off of “fixing” a specific problem and focus my efforts/attention on building confidence in the dog and on building a foundation of consistency and trust between you and your dog.

You sound like you have been all over the place in terms of training techniques/strategies/mindset. I do not think that has been helpful to you or your dog.
Agreed :thumbup:
 
#135 ·
classes for a reactive dog may not be the right place at this time....I'd rather stay with the trainer you are working with, and bring in some dogs that are neutral with higher thresholds to proof some behaviors you are dealing with. THEN add in a dog that may show more excitement and proof your dog in that situation.

The only class I'd go to with a reactive dog would be a Control Unleashed type class or nosework where the dog works independently but can still build confidence in a controlled 'distractive' environment. Agility has too much energy, rally is usually close quarters. Don't set the dog up to fail, stay with a consistent plan.
 
#136 ·
I don't like classes at all. I'd consider them only for the benefit of being able to work around dogs

as far as a consistent plan, I'm trying to come up with one. I got some pointers from this thread. still deciding on some things.

I'm working on his focus and motivation for the last few months. we don't train much, I'm just trying to get him to want to be around me it works some. not like ME ' S dogs though. not even close lol

I'm not sure how to build confidence. I let him win at tug, what else can I do?
 
#137 · (Edited)
obedience and even fun tracking with lots of praise tossed in will build confidence.
Also seeing you, as his handler that has his back, will do the same.
If the dog knows the handler is the one in control, they can relax and not have to feel like they have to be 'on' all the time. This is done thru training, he respects you when you ask more of him and will really try to achieve success. Dogs do like to please, and seldom do they like to play by their own rules(though a few are more about themselves than pleasing their people)
 
#139 · (Edited)
So how do you build confidence when you are putting yoru dog in an environment that is over his threshold? Of course that would be the end goal, but not where I'd put him to begin. I don't do agility now but did an intro to agility with Onyx after we did a CU class, so am curious to know if a dog that shows that type behavior can deal with the energy that is going on in the venue.
My reactive dog couldn't be let off leash unless it was cleared of other dogs(certain breeds set her off BC/Aussie/Shelties) so we did the jump chutes alone, and ran the course on a line.
I think the other handlers and instructors were intimidated by my dog, which didn't help(she didn't act out because I had her under threshold) The trainers were of NO help, and I didn't expect them to be, with Onyx's issues...we were basically taking this course to proof what the CU class set us up for.
I didn't continue with agility as I was not happy with the instructors or the venue. The CU class worked for the most part, taught us both how to manage, but it wasn't a cure-all...Onyx is a work in progress, maturity has helped but she'll never be a stable go anywhere type dog.
 
#140 ·
Agility is a good choice. So is Rally. Going through training does not mean you are ready to go to a show where there are tons of people and dogs, etc. Usually the classes I go to have 8 max people in them. A lot have fewer, and the space is really dependent. Usually you can keep your dog far enough away until they are more comfortable with the dogs present, while still working. While doing the exercises, yours is the only dog in the ring, and they can actually feel very comfortable in there.

Improving a dog's reactivity does not happen in a vacuum. Going to a six or eight week course where other people have dogs that are leashed and under control, can be very helpful. But the big thing is to build the bond between you and the dog, by building confidence in the dog. And Rally and Agility can be good for these.
 
#141 · (Edited)
as long as the instructor is cool with a reactive dog in the class. Many aren't or won't deal with that and it upsets the other teams trying to focus on the class. I guess I'd rather go a couple times per week with a one on one before going to a group class. But it all depends on the dog and training. Reactivity is one thing, aggressive behavior is another, and fear/timidness is yet something else. Whatever works for the individual dog.
 
#144 ·
as long as the instructor is cool with a reactive dog in the class.
I'm not convinced that this dog is actually a reactive dog at all. It sounds more like a confused, poorly trained young dog that doesn't have a clue what it's owner wants - not meaning to offend the OP, but she's all over the place with this dog. She freely admits she hasn't been training the dog, yet she's concentrating on correction methods. MAJOR correction methods - prong & e-collar. The trainer she uses doesn't see the dog as being reactive, so the OP second guesses them.

The OP freely admits that she watches and waits for things for the dog to react to. I suspect the OP is reacting more than the dog is reacting.

I don't think the dog has a clue what it is that is expected from it. Sitting in a beginner Agility class would be good for the OP and the dog. One of the very first things we were taught was how to ignore the other dogs. The dogs learn to watch the handler for instructions and not the other dogs. The handler learns that EVERY movement they make means something to their dog.
 
#142 ·
The last Agility class I have been in with was with Joy when she was a puppy -- about 4.5 years ago. There was a nasty tri-color corgi that wanted to eat Joy. I talked the the instructor after the first set of classes, and she felt that since Joy was so young at the time, it would be better not to bring her back at that point because were she to get attacked by the corgi it could be bad. I think the Corgi was competing in agility, as I knew of the dog through a sibling's owner.

Anyhow, it seems like it just depends on the class/instructor.
 
#143 ·
I've been able to prevent all reactions I noticed. the times he notices before I do he still reacts. I'm not surprised, just stating a fact.

this is a huge step from before, when I didn't know how to prevent a reaction. but I'd still like to find a way to make him not want to react.

and dealing with people reactions Is much harder. with dogs i know that any dog will set him off so I tell him leave it before he's in the zone.
with people, since he reacts to random people, I'm not able to do that.

unless I walk while staring at him and look for ears up, stiffening, tail up - I will miss every reaction to a person.

also, I'm sure sometimes I misread him and he wasn't about to react and I just made a big deal out of him just being curious about someone.
is that a big deal?

also, when he does leave it I praise like crazy and treat him. working well so far except the missed reactions.

got a bunch of videos of him running with a few dogs at the park last night. bad quality, it was dark. can post if anyone wants to see. he knows the dogs though.


oh yeah, one more thing. he guards from other dogs. Like If a dog goes near my bag (with his stuff) he will lunge at them. also, if i feed another dog or pet another dog (he's better at this though)

I know he shouldn't be guarding anything and I should be able to pet any dog. just saying what else he does. he did it last night so I remembered

basically, my doggie has me well trained. I pet dogs if he isn't looking, I make sure my bag is on my back if there are dogs around and on and on lol
 
#145 ·
I'd be very glad if you were right. I also freely admitted I don't know what I'm doing.

Few notes. He has basic training, sit, down, recall. I said I'm not training much now, I went back to basics which following ME's methods means engagement and motivation.

Also, this trainer hasn't seen the reactions. But I do agree and hope that he's just confused. I also think when he first reacted I didn't do the right things and made him reactive.

And me watching him is the only way to prevent reactions. When I don't watch him he just reacts. It's def not the case of me expecting it and him obliging.

Unless I watch him he will have 5-10 fits a day. I only started watching him 2 months ago when a diff trainer told me to. She said my dog gives off tons of warnings and I miss them because I'm not paying attention. She's right. I'm able to prevent any reaction I notice in time.


Once I was training him downstairs by the entrance and had him in a sit. Some girls were passing by. I looked away for a moment and he lunged from the sit. I'm not making this stuff up. I have many stories. He has some fear issues. His hair goes up when He reacts.
 
#146 ·
Fee more. Sometimes we open the door and someone is walking up the stairs. He goes into a fit. He's not feeding off me, I'm caught off guard. These days I look in the peep hole before going out.

Does this make me paranoid and expecting reactions? You bet. But since this happened 30 times I think I have reasons to be paranoid.

He also lunges at kids. Yep, I def watch him when any kid passes by

This is the case of what came first. His reactions came first and my paranoia came after.
 
#147 ·
They are NOT fits!!! Your dog is being disobedient! Perhaps he is reactive. Nothing to be proud of. But a true reactive dog isn't reactive sometimes and not other times. A disobedient dog does as he pleases. When he pleases. As he pleases.
 
#151 ·
No, the trainer said he'd have to see a reaction to say for sure. We tried getting a reaction to a person and couldn't. They're random, as I told you.

However, we were able to get a reaction to a dog because he reacts to any dog and he confirmed that my dog is in defense.

He then said that I should correct him any time he does that.


Problem is that it took one pop to shut him up, he's always easy around trainers. When I'm alone it takes lots of force, yanking and dragging him along.

So I'm trying to avoid reactions by watching him and preventing them before he goes in the zone.
 
#155 · (Edited)
Problem is that it took one pop to shut him up, he's always easy around trainers. When I'm alone it takes lots of force, yanking and dragging him along.
THIS is the point I'm trying to make. THIS is what the OP needs to work on. Not flipping around correction methods to see which one works best. WHY is her dog ignoring her?

One pop stops this crazed, reactive fits - when the trainer does it. BUT the OP is now using an e-collar. Because......
 
#156 ·
I thought about it and added this

The dog we used at the trainer's just sat there. So that's why it was easy. It's distance and dog's behavior that affects the strength of his reaction.


But I said many times, I'm a beginner and made many mistakes. I'm trying to learn to fix them.
 
#163 ·
I think that there are a lot of problems:

You're inexperienced
You're looking for advice on the net
You're watching videos
You're working with a trainer that maybe you don't trust
You're checking through the peep hole
You're afraid of doing the wrong thing.
You're getting very defensive when people are trying to help you.

The dog has no confidence at all in you to protect him. It isn't easy to fool a dog about your emotions, but you have to try. You have to step out in confidence. If the prong collar gives you enough control over the dog NOT to let him get into a state of barking and lunging, than use it.

The thing is, you need to train your dog on basics where there is no distractions, and be very consistent, very positive, very engaging and interesting and fun and the whole nine yards. And when you go out, try to see before the dog does things that are likely to make him react. Instead of waiting for a reaction, back up and call your dog front, have him watch you. Have him sit. Have him do a little obedience -- this is ONLY if you have acted before he reacts.

If he gets to the point of reacting, then you have missed your threshold, and the thing to do, is to matter of factly say, "Eh!", maybe a quick pop with the prong, but whatever you do, keep moving. Move so that you are not running away or backing away from the problem, but you are not decreasing the distance between you and the problem. So if you are on the side walk and they are on the side walk. veer off the path toward the street, but keep moving and get him past the object before he has a chance to get into one of his fits.

A reactive dog is a nerve bag. They are just manifesting it by barking and lunging, rather than cowering behind you. The cure is to build the confidence of the dog, and often times the answer to that is in building the confidence of the owner. Three years from now, your dog is going to step out of the door with you and be fine, either because he has grown enough confidence in himself and in you, or because you will have learned to manage the environment enough and have confidence in yourself and in him.

I am not a Cesar fan, but a LOT of dogs can be turned around just by the demeaner of the person doing the handling. Step out in confidence. Be the leader. Carry a stick if you have to. Take a self-defense course it can build you up. And when you go out with your dog, fake it if necessary, but go out with the mindset that you are in charge of it all.

I think you have to decide whether your trainer knows more than you do about stuff or not. If she does not, dump her and get another trainer. If she does, than follow what she is trying to do with you. TALK to her if you do not understand something, or are having a problem with something. And forget the rest of the venues for advice and training.

Keep a diary, a daily journal. And when after six months, after a grueling day with your dog, go back and read where you were, and where you are now with him. If the progress isn't enough, decide then if you want to go with another trainer, different classes, a different viewpoint.
 
#164 ·
So there's no confusion. I follow what my trainer says. It's a he (I had a few)
But he hasn't seen everything I'm seeing. Also, when my dog reacted to a dog we used over there and he stopped after a pop I attributed it to the fact that the trainer was there.

It took me a few days and reading something here to understand why he was so easy to stop. That's where the forum helps me.

I'm not asking for advice in the sense that I will disregard what my trainer said and do something I was told here. I get some ideas and reading and writing helps me understand some things.


And again, I'm able to stop any reaction I notice in time. I see a dog before he does - and I can make him not react. If he sees the dog or person before I do - then it takes more force which I'm trying to avoid.

I can put on all the fronts I want, he will react. There's been times I was walking and reading, not scared of anything, not paying attention. He reacted if he saw a trigger.

He's not feeding off me. Maybe he was and that's how it started but at this point it's a habit, a learned reaction.
 
#165 ·
If I notice the dog before he does - that's what I do, watch me, good boy, heel, and I can avoid the reaction.

Once he reacted and a dog is really scary to him - It takes much more than Eh and a pop. It takes yanking to get away from there.
I def don't stick around and make a scene. I keep moving but to keep moving I have to YANK him. So it's a setback and an ugly scene

That's why the peep holes and looking around corners. The only way for me to work him is to notice before he does.

Or there's another way? 2 trainer's told me to watch for triggers and notice before he does. Why is that a problem?
 
#166 ·
Maybe someone doesn't understand the peep holes.

Many times (20-30?) we'd open the front door to go out and someone would be standing there opening their front door or coming up the stairs. It's a tiny space. So he'd go into a fit. Yanking, popping, saying things. Nothing works, he doesn't see, hear or feel. So I drag him inside and wait for him to calm down.


Once, a family was coming up the stairs. 4 people and they were a minute apart, so I didn't know someone else was coming.

Drag him in, he calmed down, opened the door, another person, another fit. Drag him in, calmed down. Again, go back out, one more coming up. Fit, drag him back in. Go back out. One more.
After this I started looking in the peep hole.

So I'm interested to know what the experts would do. Keep opening front door without looking and risk a fit if anyone is there? Or look in the peep hole and then at least get a chance to work on it.

Answer this question. Since you're picking on the peep hole.
 
#167 ·
I like to keep things real simple Lala. I would forget all the engagement stuff, all the videos, everything. I would just teach him to sit on command and not move till he's released to.

Do it away from active dogs, add your own distractions that he will want to break the sit for, but not go crazy over. When I walk my dogs, no matter what their temperament and we come across another dog walking with someone, I automatically move to the left and sit my dog. I don't try to keep moving because I don't trust the other person to control their dog and I don't want them coming up from behind. With my dog sitting on my left, I'm between everything and just that much more in control of it all.

I don't look for triggers or anything else. If he's sitting, everything is fine, I don't care what the other dog is doing as long as they don't make contact.
 
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