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Aggression and stuff about my dog

22K views 284 replies 26 participants last post by  glowingtoadfly 
#1 ·
From the other thread

Gtf, it wasn't a club that evaluated him. I didn't go there yet. I asked my trainer to eval him. My trainer competes nationally and I'd say def knows what he's doing. He also hosts a club though not taking any members now (or didn't want my dog)

In any case, I'm having a hard time dismissing what he says. I might still go for the eval and the club already told me they Will take him. They said any dog can do some parts. It is expensive, $500 down and $100 a month. So if anything, I'd be more inclined to ignore their eval because they'd tell me things I want to hear to get me to join.

My trainer isn't gaining or losing anything.

But my dog has nerve issues. There is no way around it. I can dance around and make excuses but there's no reason for him to bark at people. He barks at someone almost every day. He barks at every dog.

My trainer saw him react to a dog and said It was defense, so fear but I already knew that.

I'm almost sure he reacts to people out of fear too.

The reason I'm trying to understand what drives his reactions is because I don't want to punish fear. I'm confused.

Also, I can't correct him hard enough. Once he goes into a fit he doesn't feel anything.

Even if he wants to sniff something really bad or pull - I can yank all I want, total ignore.


If he's fear aggressive or insecure then where's this hardness coming from? How does he take all this pain and ignore it? Or he can be nervy and hard at the same time?


I'm soo confused if it's not obvious


One more thing. I know I should catch the reaction before it happens (optimally) but since I've missed a few I think now I might be popping him thinking he was about to react and he wasn't.
So unfair again
 
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#53 ·
First - good choice on the Leerburg leash. Love mine. The leather will continue softening. It is doubtful the leash will ever snap; very strong leather.

Also agree on using the medium prong size.

The walk looked good. Saw the alert at 3.0, he refocused back on you 'good boy'. What happened at around 4.0? To me it sounded like you came out with a nervous pitch to your voice. Could be me hearing things, just think back about it.

The people he does react to. Think about what they were wearing - color, style; eye contact with him, looking/staring at you. It may seem to be random reactions, but a good chance there is something connecting them to trigger the reaction.

When you see your boy setting up to react, do you give him a command such as sit or heel; or just go the other way? If you do, and he follows the command sit, do you jackpot it until the person has passed you?
 
#56 ·
When you see your boy setting up to react, do you give him a command such as sit or heel; or just go the other way? If you do, and he follows the command sit, do you jackpot it until the person has passed you?
Jackpots are very important. I used raw venison, very messy but it worked.
 
#57 ·
Hmm well I would take a slightly different approach. It's time to stop worrying about if your dog is fearful/aggressive and just let him know...what is not acceptable behaviour.

You need to modify "your" approach, the prong is not working for "you" and "this" if it was used correctly to start...you would not be having this problem.

As soon as the leash gets tight...you've lost the battle! The dog "expects a "yank" or some form of prong correction and he simple does not care!

I would lose the prong and go with a flat collar and leash. It will be a new dynamic for both him and you.

Sometimes answer aren't found where we expect to see them.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5120529-post48.html

This came in the what to do if your dog is attacked thread. Back in the day while I was still working with dog, he is excellent on leash so no pulling but there were a couple of little dogs behind a fence and they were bark,barking in his face! He started to ramp up and get more and more agitated!

I popped him across the head "with the loose end of the leash" fairly lightly and it broke his concentration..."what the heck was that???" Problem solved that was 5 months go, never had an issue since! Dogs can bark bark bark in his face till they turn blue and they get 'Zero' reaction from him!

He already knows "daddy" has his back, so no point in him acting like a tool! :)

Just a thought.

Couple of videos here that maybe of use:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
 
#58 ·
Just to throw out some things that have worked with my young male dog who decided to have dog reactivity issues. He hasn't really shown issues with people, but he got to be annoying with how he was acting about other dogs. For most of the issue when he would bark and lunge I didn't just keep going forward with a correction. I decided to switch up where I was walking him as far as his position to my body.

Having to walk all three of my dogs at times, I came up with a system. Leia is right against my left side, leash usually wrapped around my body. Myles is on the other side of her, since he likes to walk at a heel, but usually have like five feet between us lol. So I decided to put Doyle on my right side. Not only was I between him and the other dogs and people approaching, but the other dogs were too. He didn't seem to care about reacting as much. We still would go along with leave it and walking past. Some times I would stop and ask him to sit. He was watching them more easily, not as concerned. It made walking on our greenbelt so much easier with them all.

The other thing that I was doing was handing him his tushy when he would attempt to snap at dogs while we were walking on hiking trails with the club. Guess it could be seen as setting him up to fail, because whenever there was a new dog, if it passed by us, he would decide to snap at it. Any time that he did, I would pick his front feet off of the ground, physically step into him/push him off the trail away from the other dog while saying "No! Unacceptable!" The tone being more important than the words lol. After a moment, we would continue on. If the dog came near again, I would say leave it or just watch and praise him when he just kept on task. Him behaving also got him allowed off leash after a bit, which was the bigger reward for him than food or toys. Getting to be with my older dogs, or more importantly my golden, was the best reward for him.

He now is calm and more relaxed around other dogs. If he is off leash and feels overwhelmed by a dog, he comes over to me so that I can deal with it for him. He has learned the human is the safe place and he trusts me to take care of whatever has him nervous.

So just some ideas if it is insecurity or fear driving the aggression. :) Doyle I am fairly sure was insecure and being low man on the totem pole at home, he figured if he was mean/scary first that they wouldn't try anything. Since then, we have had all kinds of good interactions with new dogs and he hasn't seemed to revert back any either.

Hopefully you can get things figured out.
 
#64 ·
Chip the prong has worked and the reason I'm still having some reaction is for the reasons I described above. I keep going back and forth between methods because I can't decide on one.
Also, we have setbacks that I can't control. But I'm able to stop most reactions. Huge change from before

Even if that wasn't the case I will never give up the prong. I'm calm because I know I can control him. Take away the prong and I will tense up and clutch his collar anytime anything gets close.

Never. Even if he stops reacting I will have it on just in case, just won't pop It.

Are you for real? Take a prong off a reactive dog? And control him how?


Next dog I get, with everything I know hopefully won't need a prong at all, but this one has been on a choker starting at 4 months (dumb trainer) he can take lots of force and ignore it. Never.
 
#78 ·
Are you for real? Take a prong off a reactive dog? And control him how?
:D

That's a reasonable question and you have to do whatever works for you!

But something are basic, the leash has to stay loose in fornt of triggers are you will never get control!

Thresholds have to be managed so either distance or time. My guys was "people aggressive! I never gave him the opportunity to distinguish between short fat tall skinny,canes wheelchairs etc.! I didn’t give it crap not his concern...'we are moving now dog ...get over it!

If it took strength to train a dog then only men would be dog trainers?? Your doing as I said "the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result??"

I try and out think my dogs, works much better than battling with them. :)

I have seen Caesar Milan work with dogs on TV...(who hasn't :)) and usually 9 times out of 10. The first thing he does is dump whatever "crap" the owner has on the dog! It's usually not working the dog has an attitude or grown use to the ill handling.

Here is a video I like this guy myself, he's working with an aggressive dog, the dog came to him on a GL (which I consider a piece of crap myself) I thought the first think he would do was dump it! He didn’t???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfiDe0GNnLQ

What "I" got out of that is it's not the tool it's the handler!

Sometimes the solution to a problem is at the "other end of the leash." :)
 
#82 ·
A correction for the reaction worked for Jax. After years of not correcting, stuffing her face with treats, and the behavior continuing, a well timed correction paired with LAT worked for her. I had a dog that couldn't go into public without having a fit that would lay in the middle of Tractor Supply, relaxed, watching other dogs.
 
#83 ·
A correction for the reaction worked for Jax. After years of not correcting, stuffing her face with treats, and the behavior continuing, a well timed correction paired with LAT worked for her. I had a dog that couldn't go into public without having a fit that would lay in the middle of Tractor Supply, relaxed, watching other dogs.
I've definitely heard of it working, I've just never seen it in person.
 
#86 ·
I shut Seger's punky reactions down with a correction too. Nope, not allowed. End of story. BUT he is not weak nerved or genetically dog aggressive. He was just being a punk.
I don't get to work with many stable dogs that may take corrections well or understand. I also don't get to work with many owners that understand how to use corrections. I suspect this could greatly influence the success I've seen with corrections.
 
#95 ·
I should add, my go-to-advice for anyone with reactivity problems is to find a trainer, irl. Internet training is silly when only a moment in time is described through an owner's eyes that might not know what they are seeing. We can talk about what we "think" the problem is and what we "think" the solution is, until the cows come home....but bottom line, over the internet, we could be completely off base. I also don't think people can learn to correct their dog over the internet, they need someone to show them in person about timing, balance, fairness, reward, etc...I also don't believe you can broadly classify what a dog can or can't take based only on genetics, reactivity, owners, etc....Each dog needs a plan dictated by that dog's temperament, stressors, handler capability, etc...Training (good training) isn't a "one-size-fits-all" program. There may be parameters that continually work, but adjustments need to be made and trainers need to be willing to think outside their "way of doing things." That first dog I talked about, his owner was told by a trainer when the dog was just around a year old, "this is just who he is...you need to manage it." Basically given a, "oh well" after taking their money and walking away....I hate that.
 
#96 ·
I didn't read all of the replies, but most of them, and saw your video.

That is a very busy place, cars, buses, lots of people, kids in stroller, etc. For my dog that would be flooding.
He looked "relaxed" (was he? I dont know..), and i did notice him focusing on you a lot (which is great!)

My sister's dog reacts to other dogs and barks at people (she is not aggressive to people but barks at them), she takes her dog into tractor supply. And is fine.

When i took Zelda to the reactive rover class, there are about 6 other dogs, and about 12+ people in a room about 50 ft by 50 ft. Most of the dogs who are reactive to other dogs or people, were good. There was one dog that would growl at people and one other dog who was reactive to other dogs who would bark. Other than that, the dogs did great. Made it look like they were all practically perfect- of course they are not. But they were flooded, and shut down. Zelda shuts down by not taking treats, laying down and putting her head down, and not wanting to do anything. Other dogs can react different, and shutting down can happen on a walk too- doesn't necessarily mean they have to lay down, like my sisters dog.

I think its pretty obvious when a dog is fear aggressive, and a couple of trainers i worked with say that most of the time aggressive dogs, act out of fear. Insecurity, i am sure can be a reason and is a cause a lot of the time.

Just my thoughts! :)
 
#100 ·
I didn't read all of the replies, but most of them, and saw your video.

That is a very busy place, cars, buses, lots of people, kids in stroller, etc. For my dog that would be flooding.
He looked "relaxed" (was he? I dont know..), and i did notice him focusing on you a lot (which is great!)

My sister's dog reacts to other dogs and barks at people (she is not aggressive to people but barks at them), she takes her dog into tractor supply. And is fine.

When i took Zelda to the reactive rover class, there are about 6 other dogs, and about 12+ people in a room about 50 ft by 50 ft. Most of the dogs who are reactive to other dogs or people, were good. There was one dog that would growl at people and one other dog who was reactive to other dogs who would bark. Other than that, the dogs did great. Made it look like they were all practically perfect- of course they are not. But they were flooded, and shut down. Zelda shuts down by not taking treats, laying down and putting her head down, and not wanting to do anything. Other dogs can react different, and shutting down can happen on a walk too- doesn't necessarily mean they have to lay down, like my sisters dog.

I think its pretty obvious when a dog is fear aggressive, and a couple of trainers i worked with say that most of the time aggressive dogs, act out of fear. Insecurity, i am sure can be a reason and is a cause a lot of the time.

Just my thoughts! :)

this is a block we live on))))) this is what he's exposed to every day many times a day. people constantly in his space.

no, he was relaxed. he acts fine most of the time. i wish a good trainer can live with me for a week and see what goes on and explain it all and show me how to fix it. when we go for sessions he's much better behaved and much easier controlled. i get all happy, go home and then back to normal
 
#98 ·
i have a trainer, going there again tomorrow. he told me to pop him every time. he said it's just basic obedience, he's not allowed to react. period.

i'm afraid to commit to that, that's why i'm posting. also, when he's out there with the trainer (any trainer) his reactions are stopped very easily. takes a pop. once we are alone it's much uglier.
 
#108 ·
no, the ecollar disnt fix the problem right away, just shut him up that once.

what I'm saying is that with any trainer around my dog is on his best behavior. it took me one pop to shut him up. when we go home and are alone it's not that easy.

it takes much more force to stop the reaction. I'm wondering what the trainer would say if he saw it.
 
#109 ·
So as long as they ignore him, he is fine?

He is barking and lunging at him, probably to tell them to back off he needs space?

He literally goes behind you?

Fear isn't always logical. But it does sounds like he is being fear aggressive.

I really like this, "First we teach calming behaviors like commands so that we can reprogram their reactions to people. So yes, we always go back to commands so that they can 'see' the picture clearly for what it is..." So what i understand from it, usually FA dogs have irrational fears, and then they , soon become a habit, and that habit is ingrained in them, that they do the action without remembering why they feared it. So helping them learn to manage their own emotions properly, and showing them an approved outlet of their actions so that they can be stable dogs. In the mean time, management.
I dont know, just some thoughts to think about :)
 
#110 ·
So as long as they ignore him, he is fine?

He is barking and lunging at him, probably to tell them to back off he needs space?

He literally goes behind you?

Fear isn't always logical. But it does sounds like he is being fear aggressive.

I really like this, "First we teach calming behaviors like commands so that we can reprogram their reactions to people. So yes, we always go back to commands so that they can 'see' the picture clearly for what it is..." So what i understand from it, usually FA dogs have irrational fears, and then they , soon become a habit, and that habit is ingrained in them, that they do the action without remembering why they feared it. So helping them learn to manage their own emotions properly, and showing them an approved outlet of their actions so that they can be stable dogs. In the mean time, management.
yep, you saw the video. tons of people. also, if a person is in his space out of nowhere he will react. like last night, we opened the door to go out and someone was coming up the stairs.

yes, lol, goes behind me and barks from there lol.
 
#112 ·
there was a dog downstairs. he saw him before I did.

so he went off, I zapped on 20, nothing, 30, nothing. by then the dog walked away.

I can feel 17 and it's not a good feeling. is it even healthy to zap them like this?

last time I did 40, didn't realize it was that high. he jumped and did stop barking right away.

I will give it a few more tries before I decide against it.
 
#113 ·
Well heres my opinion. The way you are using it sounds like a red flag to me.
I wouldn't keep using it the way you are.
Try messaging Lou Castle for his advice and look up his technique. Or try and find somewhere who uses e-collar similar to him.
 
#114 ·
If you're worried about the amount of force it takes to get the dog to knock it off, keep in mind it's only once per incident. Far less than the sum of total lighter constant pops/corrections and pulls and lunges he does to himself on the collar over a longer period of time till you come up with a new method that will get him settled down.

I had to do a hard correction once on my reactive dog. It was done by accident which I won't go into details here. Prior to that, I was a total newbie, not wanting to correct too hard and thought my corrections were adequate but the dog was just too reactive to care. By the way you described your trainer's correction, I'm willing to bet mine was even harder. After that one hard correction, her facial expression changed from one of extreme distraught to "oh ok, fine, i give up" and relaxed facial expression. After that one time, all the future encounters were MUCH easier and never do I have to do it that hard again. My dog is still reactive but compared to her first year... this is nothing.

For me LAT did not work. In the sight of a dog, nothing mattered to my dog. If the strange dog is a mile away, maybe that'd work but I didn't want to consider how long that will take to go from a mile to 20 feet when I have other options.
 
#115 ·
I haven't read through this whole post and I feel your pain. My last dog was a genetic mess, he reactions were not predictable. You are going to get to a point where you have to decide what you can live with.

Avery could walk in crowds, like your boy. But if we were on a hike and someone showed up on the pathway, he would explode. Or if we went to the parkway on a not so busy day. Any dog would cause him to get overly excited (and embarrassing) and then certain people would weird him out. We could not have ppl over. I had to have a plan to get him introed to new people and eventually, I didn't have ppl over or if I did he was put in the other room.

He had two negative encounters with neighbors and forever hated them. But if you were in his "inner circle" you were good for life...He had a couple of weird nights at my last apartment where his fearful state extended to me, but I realized very quickly ignoring him (pretended he wasn't in the room) was the key and he would recover rather quickly..Avery did not like any attention from anyone outside his inner circle, he did not like being looked at.

And we were kicked out of Flyball, because even just one other person in the ring would cause him to loose focus. He would have to go to that person and bark at them.

With all that being said. I miss him every single day.

Here's the day I brought my new car home. This is how he would react meeting a new person except with people he would get close enough to touch them:
IMG 0856 - YouTube

Here he is on an off day with me, before I discovered the answer to this behavior:
IMG 0895 - YouTube

Here he is walking through crowds of ppl with no issues:
http://youtu.be/z2rKKy7_62s

And here he is on a normal happy boy day!
IMG 0446 - YouTube
 
#116 ·
what a beautiful boy!!!!

yeah, he sounds similar to mine though there are some differences.

I can live with it the way it is today. it'd be nice to fix but I can go on managing

also, we had a period of 4-5 months when he stopped reacting to people. not sure if the training worked or just coincidence but it was amazing. so liberating

he's a very affectionate boy. it was enjoyable to watch him with people. and most importantly it was nice to see him relaxed.

and then he started back again. not sure if it was a coincidence again but he had two fights with a dog (no injuries) and that's about when he started reacting again.

it was a disappointment.

we are out now. I used the Ecollar twice already. for dogs both times.

I will ask my trainer tomorrow whether I'm using it right and whether he thinks I should be using it for this.

bear, i agree. him lunging isn't too healthy either. I have been praising like crazy the times he didn't react and thst happened twice as well.

what if he reacts, then gets popped or shocked and stops. should I praise like crazy there too?

ETA I praise and treat like crazy, not just praise
 
#124 ·
bear, i agree. him lunging isn't too healthy either. I have been praising like crazy the times he didn't react and thst happened twice as well.

what if he reacts, then gets popped or shocked and stops. should I praise like crazy there too?

ETA I praise and treat like crazy, not just praise
The praise thing depends on the dog. My dog could care less. I just mark it with a positive word - "good girl" and move on. The letting go of stress and sniffing the next smelly thing is much more rewarding to her than my praise and I want her to stay in a calm state.

I'm guessing what may be the problem is your timing and the amount of correction to match that timing (ie. the later you correct, the harder your correction will need to be). Maybe ask the trainer to go for a walk with you and trail behind you to see you do it before you start any other lessons with the trainer so the dog is not in the "training zone".

For the e-collar, like others have said - your dog has to know what that correction is for or he's going to guess it and may guess it wrong. Have you taught him what the stim means and how to turn it off?
 
#118 ·
I think, I know many people here have said it too, that you need to pick a method and stick with it. Period. I think the issue you are having with leash popping, is that many times he's so far over threshold you are dragging him along more so than correcting him.

Whereas the trainer is doing a quick swift pop and he is getting the message loud and clear. And as you said the trainer has not seen him react the way he does around you.

This is what I hear from your responses. The only way to evaluate a dog is in person. And corrections are not my forte.
 
#120 ·
I'm just talking about the behavior of him reacting afraid of me. He had to be ignored completely.

If you can find an item (toy or food) that is higher value than anything outside, LAT can work wonders!

Avery just passed in May, at 4 years old, he was still reactive at this point. I ended up mostly managing him. He lived in a constant state of fear, from freaking out if I dropped something, to being afraid of the blinds, he had a fearful "moment" daily where he'd run and hide on my bed or his... Honestly his comfort with all the vet visits was another red flag that he truly didn't feel good.
 
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