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Sigh.. possession aggression...

12K views 133 replies 20 participants last post by  my boy diesel 
#1 ·
Hello all.. I am just a little miffed tonight. My baby boy of 2 years got extremely possessive over a beef rib bone with me. He has never, ever, ever been food aggressive/possession aggressive with us. I gave him a rib bone from my birthday party earlier, when I went down to pet him/love on him he tensed up and growled at me.. he has never ever done this before.. he is well trained, socialized, and an all around good guy.. he is unaltered and just turned 2 a week ago.. could his hormones be a possibility?
 
#2 ·
I recall my first dog ( neutered male ) pulled something similar when he was about 2 years old....got a bit bold ( growl and some teeth showing ) with me when I moved him from our bed...guess he thought it was his. I reintroduced the dog to who was sheriff again immediately and with "clarity"....never had another episode like that again.


SuperG
 
#4 ·
When dexter was younger we were on our way up to the boat and stopped for tims, well brendan went to take a bite of his sausage bagel and dexter leaped at his breakfast and ripped the sausage right out from his bagel. Andrew stopped the car , dex got a very firm no followed by turning the car around and he went right back to his crate for the day.
Im curious too how did you react?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#5 ·
Handling that kind of thing is delicate sometimes. Resource guarding often signals a disconnect in the relationship somewhere. A lack of trust usually. Sometimes it's an operant thing. I've seen a lot of clients trigger the behavior by approaching and trying to take an item from a dog in a hesitant or weird way that emboldens the dog to attempt a response.

It sounds like you weren't even going for the item. The dog probably didn't realize that, but even if you were it isn't a good response to get.

I don't know if it's a relationship thing or a weird hesitant approach that caused it or what went on, but if I didn't see it in one of my dogs and it suddenly happened at the 2 year mark for the first time ever my response would be very very sudden very very dramatic and after I got done smacking him around I'd give him the item back and let him be on his way. That way it's very clear it wasn't about the item it was about the agression.

I don't necessarily recommend that approach to people who don't know if they can win a fight should one start though.

For people who can't do that and even those who can I would just never put the dog in that situation again so as not to strengthen the behavior.
 
#7 ·
With well trained, what do you mean? Is he generally respectful of you? Crate trained, does he have impulse control? He is not a 2 year old baby, he is a young adult male dog. I hope you don't treat him like a baby. He might have strat climbng the social ladder and see how far he could go.
On another note the beef rib from your party, was it cooked? Because that can be dangerous as it might splinter and harm him. Bones should never given cooked.
 
#8 · (Edited)
That's how I start with puppies with food and toys to build that trust and relationship. The problem is if the relationship is there and has been there and suddenly you see it anyway. The punishment on the first incident in that case is to prevent a repeat of the behavior. It isn't about the item. If you gave it to the dog you gave it to the dog. It's about punishing the act of agression.

It isn't about dominance or showing the dog who is boss. It's about punishing a behavior to weaken it. Once it becomes an operant thing it doesn't matter how the dog views you, it becomes conditioned as a behavior despite all that. Dogs are like autistic kids in that way. There's no thought put into the action necessarily it's just a reaction to a conditioned stimulus.
 
#10 ·
If you're dead set against confrontation make the dog drag a leash and remove the dog from the item and not the item from the dog. It's a manageable thing. Or if you're wanting to load the dice in your favor punish with e collar.
 
#11 ·
What happens when there are no other higher value items to "trade up" with

you do not give that high of value until they learn they are not losing something
do read the article because it explains how to do it and the proper steps
you want to be the giver of good things not the taker
 
#22 ·
From the article..." Being consistently dominant/pack-leaderish around a resource-guarding dog DOES help the behavior, because it makes the dog feel more secure and safe. Secure and safe dogs are willing to give up food or beds, because they are happy and calm."...I wholeheartedly agree.

From the article...."When the dog is happily interacting with the object or chew (keep it in your hand while she is doing this) you cheerfully say “Trade!” and bring your other hand over and shove a Tiny But Incredibly Awesome Treat in her nose."...the assumption here is the tiny portion of an awesome treat is the end all....the highest value treat...well, unfortunately for some...the "awesome treat"...the item with the highest value might be a beef rib with bloody red meat on it...I rather doubt a TBIAT will compete with that....hence my comment...what happens when there is no "higher value" treat. In my opinion the "trade game" seems to be void of a real understanding and is predicated on a bribe of sorts...when the day comes when you have nothing to "bribe" the dog with or the dog has THE highest value reward...you are screwed....but, yes..the lesson supposedly here is ...after you have played the trade game for awhile and the dog has learned, there need be no more trading because the dog will freely surrender whatever it is one wants....I don't buy into that personally.

And in conclusion....from your article..."I see this in my own pack–Clue, who is the dominant bitch, very rarely does any kind of food guarding or resource guarding. She simply owns the food, and rarely gets into any squabbles."

Exactly my point from the beginning.....right of ownership....who truly has it.....I know who does in my life with my dog.


SuperG
 
#14 ·
It is a very simple matter. What the dog saw was that you came over to mess with him while he was enjoying a prized object, in his eyes you were going to try to steal it from him as a lower pack member would do and he bowed up and growled as he would have done if another (lower ranking) dog approached him while he was enjoying his meal.

Best solution, teach him the out command. When he has a prized object and you want to do something (take it away, pet him or whatever) give the out command, he will let go willingly and look up to you for the next action. Here you have raised your position to alpha in his mind. He will no longer defend a prized object in this case.
 
#15 ·
OP was not taking the item. Nor did the OP intend to take the item.

and the dog knew she was not going to take it how...?
I gave him a rib bone from my birthday party earlier, when I went down to pet him/love on him he tensed up and growled at me..

to a dog that petting and 'loving' on him is a precursor to taking the bone in his mind

i always say how did the dog perceive it because it does not matter what your intentions were
what matters is how the dog viewed or perceived your actions
 
#18 ·
How do you build trust with an e-collar, as you advised in an earlier thread? Trust is different than fear out of pain.
For me is the trade game that works. At this level, no high value chewies so you can up with the better stuff and build from there. That takes longer than shocking him into submission but you maintain a happier dog. At the same time work on the NILIF.
But I know we all work with techniques we are comfortable with and there is no one way that works for everyone.
 
#17 ·
I think the two of you missed my point.....Cassidy and Myboy

Anyway, never had to trade up or deal with the problem of resource guarding except maybe once or twice when they were young pups....I didn't have to play any trade games or other baloney....they all simply learned at a very young age...good things come from my hands and they are mine...and I am sharing with them...if they chose to be greedy once or twice I responded in kind except with a bit more "authority"...and perhaps that only happened with one of my shepherds. I start from square one...in the very beginning...the food my pups would eat was my food...when I was done with my face in their food bowl, I'd let them have at it...it was just that simple. I can take anything from my current shepherd and I don't even need to "take" it...I simply tell her to drop it...doesn't matter if it's a frisbee or a bloody red piece of beef or chicken quarter...the seed was planted many moons ago...this is all mine and I love to share...oh, and I have never been the taker...because I only have given...it seems so infinitely easy.

SuperG
 
#19 ·
they all simply learned at a very young age

so you taught them from the beginning and there has never been an issue

and you did not read the article which shows how to lay a foundation before pushing the dog with taking a steak bone
you dont toss the dog a hunk of meatloaf then expect a milkbone biscuit or a piece of kibble will get its attention
instead you give the milk bone and trade up to a bit of cooked chicken

or other baloney.
i got your point just fine
you poo poo doing a trade game because it does not make sense to you
you are the boss of your dog and eat out of its bowl before it can
which makes no sense to me
dogs know i am not a dog so why would i be on my knees on the floor eating out of its bowl???

either way point is do not create the problem yourself or if you did create it then work to rebuild the dogs trust instead of insisting on yanking its food away from it
 
#23 ·
instead of insisting on yanking its food away from it
Where did you come up with that comment? I never did as such.....I always "ate" first during that short time period when they were pups....only took but a week or two to ingrain the idea....why would I yank there food away? That's more the philosophy of the "trade game"...you know ..I take this from you and give you this..but yet you are still taking.....no me...I'm a giver.

And you are correct...with my current shepherd there has never been an issue since the time we learned who owns the tennis ball...and I did it in "dog speak"...it worked amazing well...Oh, I guess there was a bit of a trade...I owned the tennis ball and she traded some of her lack of "respect" for me at the same time for some "respect".

SuperG
 
#24 ·
i did not say you yanked food away
that was a general statement
people in general create problems in their dogs even where none existed by making them feel insecure about their (the dogs) food

I don't buy into that personally.
that is fine but your opinion is severely biased since you have never done the trade game
 
#25 ·
You are absolutely correct...I have never needed to...I dealt with the potential situation long before it ever could have become a problem. I'm a big "right of ownership" fan and believe many problems can stem from a lack of understanding this mentality which all dogs possess to one degree or another....even though I have never done the trade game...it seems to be a band-aid....if I was in the OP's position, I might try the trade game perhaps but more than likely I would pursue the remedy in a different fashion...A.D.D....Additional Discipline Demanded...and it would have started the instant the dog acted up in that fashion. I am sorry if it is difficult for you and some others to not realize there comes a time and place for discipline..and I'm here to tell you..a dog of mine, growling and showing teeth ( soon to become laying teeth on me or someone else )is simply not tolerable or acceptable. It seems the trend in dog training for the average dog owner has become so ridiculously "feel good" and all targeted toward nothing a treat can't cure..and with that in mind, it comes as no surprise that the personal dog training business is probably booming...I wonder why? Dogs have not changed over the decades...their innate characteristics remain, this much I am certain of...I also am a believer in a combination of training methods..utilizing positive reinforcement as well as discipline when required. We simply do not agree and that is fine with me...and that's what makes life wonderful...we can all choose which route we take and we all enjoy the benefits as well as suffer the consequences from our decisions and choices.

SuperG
 
#36 ·
Most dogs aggression issues that I've worked with are operant issues meaning they received positive reinforcement for the aggression.

Example of something I saw at a party I was at tonight. A small Maltese was barking and lunging at a little girl riding a trike and the owner picked the dog up and pet the dog trying to get it to settle down.

It happens all the time.

Dogs chewing up socks eating them and dying or needing surgery. The dog performed an activity was self reinforced for it and it became deadly.

Dogs lunge and bark at strangers and what happens? Either the stranger adds distance or the handler adds distance and the dog is positively reinforced for reactivity because the threat is moved away.

Behaviors that lead to dogs being given up and ultimately put down like obsessive barking, many types of reactivity, most forms of aggression towards the handler, or really most forms of aggression period, separation anxiety, destruction of the house or property, counter surfing, trash can diving, they all are things that are learned through positive reinforcement, sometimes on the part of the owner and sometimes it's something the dog picks up on its own because of pure lack of management or discipline of the dog.

People positively reinforce their dogs for activities they hate all the time. Jumping on people, mouthing their hands, puppy biting, over excitement, etc.
 
#37 ·
I'm with SuperG on this one. Six dogs in my house and it's not something that I have ever had to deal with, with any of them. Never had to trade up either. The first thing I do when I get a new dog is see how they react to me taking a toy or picking up their dish, it gives me an idea where they are at. Not one of my dogs have ever growled at me ever. I will say that my dogs trust me 100% and they respect me as I respect each one of them. Every now and then they do it amongst themselves and I put an end to that immediately, it happens rarely, but there are toys that a couple of them like and they both want, etc. teaching a dog leave it and drop it helps tremendously. As for the rib bone, cooked bones are not good.
 
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