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Sigh.. possession aggression...

12K views 133 replies 20 participants last post by  my boy diesel 
#1 ·
Hello all.. I am just a little miffed tonight. My baby boy of 2 years got extremely possessive over a beef rib bone with me. He has never, ever, ever been food aggressive/possession aggressive with us. I gave him a rib bone from my birthday party earlier, when I went down to pet him/love on him he tensed up and growled at me.. he has never ever done this before.. he is well trained, socialized, and an all around good guy.. he is unaltered and just turned 2 a week ago.. could his hormones be a possibility?
 
#106 ·
watch the video and learn :)
the 2nd vid pay close attention to how that dog is being worked with
basically the owner created the issue by making the dog feel insecure about its meals
once you redeem yourself as the provider instead of the taker the dog relaxes

she'd be lucky if all she had to do was "go to bed"...
the problem with smacking your dog around is that once behavior escalates
and it will
where do you escalate to
to deal with the escalation?
 
#113 ·
Perhaps the happy ground we can all agree on is there is numerous ways to end up at the same place.

I think we all agree, starting from day one on a proper course gives one the best chance to not have to deal with behavioral issues such as the one the OP cited.

If a dog which someone owns from a pup all of a sudden out of nowhere exhibits this nasty behavior are we to assume it was due to a failure of a foundation not being laid previously....or might it be that the foundation just needs to be revisited and "enhanced". Perhaps a 2 year old dog is still testing the boundaries as it sees fit ?

My first dog...the only dog which ever growled at me ( probably a couple years old as well ) decided all of a sudden that the bed was his when I was moving him to make room for all. He growled and showed teeth...needless to say, in an instant the dog was moved from the bed coupled with a thunderous vocal command as well...probably was still in the laying position as he "floated" off the bed with assistance. After I settled in, I welcomed the dog back onto the bed....never had a problem again..."foundation" was revisited, reinforced and all order was as it should be.

Now envision the trading up scenario in my case...I try and move the dog...dog growls and shows teeth ..so let's say I went to the kitchen and got a bit of cheese and lured the dog off the bed or to a different spot and then got into bed..all is good again correct? I'd venture to say not...I think all I would have accomplished was empowering and emboldening the dog had I taken that tact. I think the reason I am so adamant about this is the fact that a dog that growls at it's owner is one I could not own if it persisted to any degree....I understand those who rescue dogs are in a different camp at times, however.

Do the different approaches which are being bandied about really just reflect the mindset of the owners? Those who choose to find a benign non-physical method versus those who will use physical discipline on rare occasions when required? I am for whatever works best and the last thing I want to do is match a dog's aggression with equal or more overpowering aggression on my behalf but have and will resort to that if it is demanded. Does that mean I beat my dogs and physically dominate them to get a result...of course not...I simply return in kind and when a dog ups the ante to the degree where a cookie will not cure the problem, one must venture elsewhere.....

SuperG
 
#112 ·
what we
or myself anyway
mean is to start the trading up game now as a training technique
but in a controlled manner with low value items and not just toss a guarding dog a steak bone and try out of the blue to take it
but you can start working on the training technique any time as long as you understand how it is done
which is why i posted the vids to show how it is done

with any training such as this you want to work under the dogs threshold because if it crosses the threshold it is pointless and the ops dog was over the threshold for training at that point
 
#114 ·
why would your dog who you have owned all this time and never growled when on the bed suddenly growl when on the bed?

you can what if this thing to death which is all you and llomb are posting now

the key is laying that foundation and building a relationship of trust and respect with your dog so it feels no need to growl when on the bed

and the 1st page contains a link with a detailed description of how to work with your dogs to avoid these scenarios in the 1st place
perhaps you missed that link

The “trade game” for dogs | Ruffly Speaking: Railing against idiocy since 2004

For this first session, make sure the treats are a better reward than the first object. So, for example, a rawhide bone and a handful of cut-up steak.

You sit down, and show the dog the first thing. Squeak it, shake it, whatever. The dog should come over and put his mouth on it. If she’s not all that interested, go get a higher-value object, because you do want the dog to think of it as a good thing.

When the dog is happily interacting with the object or chew (keep it in your hand while she is doing this) you cheerfully say “Trade!” and bring your other hand over and shove a Tiny But Incredibly Awesome Treat in her nose.

She will, unless she’s really unusual, immediately let go of the first object and go for the TBIAT. And you pull the first object slightly back, give her the TBIAT, and say “Good girl! Yay! Goooood trade!”

And then repeat. Offer the object, let her put her mouth on it, then say “Trade!” happily and offer the TBIAT.

Most dogs “get” this very quickly. By the end of twenty repetitions they are rather vociferously spitting the first object out as soon as they hear you start the “T” sound.

And now you just repeat this, several times a day (each time should involve a handful of treats, so maybe 20 reps per session). Begin with the mid-value objects and move up to raw bones, favorite toys, pieces of leather, etc.


Trade for the couch (the dog has to get off the couch to come over to you; you go sit where the dog was sitting), trade for a stick, trade trade trade.

For a few weeks, you’ll do this a LOT. Then, in the same way that you don’t necessarily ask the dog to sit a zillion times a day for its whole life, you can reduce the frequency. I probably do this with Clue once or twice a month, since she’s known it for two years and has no guarding issues. I need to be doing it with Bramble about ten or twenty times a day. I did it with Ginny a lot when she first came, not as frequently now that she rarely feels worried about hands anymore.
 
#115 ·
..I think all I would have accomplished was empowering and emboldening the dog had I taken that tact.
lol okay i figure youd see it that way but here is the thing
the dog lost the thing it was guarding so how again are you 'embolding' it??
it has no more resource to guard and you took its place on the bed so how did it win?
 
#116 ·
Because the dog growled/showed teeth...I leave the room...come back with a treat and bribe the dog to move....since I am a sincere believer that a dog lives in the here and now...there was absolutely no correction for the dog's previous growling hence it is emboldened to continue acting the same way in the future....moving the dog with a treat in no way communicates to the dog that the growling was unacceptable..and perhaps entices the dog to go back to the bed in the future...claim it as his...growl....and then get a treat...if the dog is smart enough.

In the real case scenario...not the trading up hypothetical...the dog temporarily lost what it was guarding....but most importantly ...it was not the issue of what the dog was guarding...it was the behavior exhibited...and furthermore, once order was restored the dog was back on the bed..so the dog lost nothing in relationship to the actual item it was guarding.....just a refresher course on civil conduct.

Does that make any sense ???


SuperG
 
#117 ·
my boy diesel,


I appreciate your conviction to your approach....

I do have a question for you...what I am hearing you say is....if your dog ever growled/snapped at you...you would never react to that infraction whatsoever but resort to a series of trading up ploys over the upcoming weeks and in that method..assume the dog will never growl/snap at you again..correct?

SuperG
 
#123 · (Edited)
Ah I see that you still haven't learned that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say it... Go keep practicing, you might comprehend that one day:) With that I have some dogs that want to enjoy the beautiful weather outside.
 
#122 · (Edited)
I don't really ever work trade up games or anything like that with my own dogs because all of that stuff is more or less taken care of when I hand feed pretty much everything they eat till they are 5-8 months old. They never have a bowl to guard.

Their toys are all conditional on training as well so with the exception of something to chew on that's basically it for things to guard and by that time the trust is there and the cooperation is there and the dog knows I'm not going to violate it often.

In "real life" situations if the dog has something he isn't supposed to have if I haven't taught the out and sometimes even if I did teach it and they just aren't supposed to touch it I'll just say no and a consequence that is intense enough to make them drop it. I don't try to hurry the item out of the way, or put it up. I'll leave it there and let the dog make the choice. Mess with it again and get punished again or leave it there and go on their merry way. If you just tell them to drop it and there's no consequence if the item has value they'll usually just pick it up again, make them value the item less and the story changes. Then you don't have to hide stuff which is nice because I can be messy.

Trading games can have their value inoculating the dog against resource guarding if you're taking items away from a dog but you don't even have to do that. Just punish the dog for messing with it if the item isn't something the dog should have, or manage the dog so the dog can't get it. That's how I can run around with a jacked up half mal half gsd in the house without worrying about him getting into something he isn't supposed to or counter surfing or whatever. Do I have to punish him all the time? No I punish him very rarely because when they try a behavior and the results are bad every single time guess what? They stop trying it!

If you want to insist on petting a dog when it eats stuff make the eating conditional upon being petted. There are lots of ways to get around all those kinds of issues without making it a big training deal. It isn't an issue that usually needs real work till it's already been made a serious operant behavior, and that can't happen unless you reinforce the dog for it and allow the dog to practice the behavior.
 
#132 · (Edited)
..if your dog ever growled/snapped at you...you would never react to that infraction whatsoever but resort to a series of trading up ploys over the upcoming weeks and in that method
no not at all
i do not push my dogs because i know what i can and cannot do with them
i give my girl a himalyan yak milk chew and she likes them a lot
that would be the only thing she would ever not want me to take so i know that and i am not going to push her or harass her
i need to put it away as i am leaving so i went and got a pill pocket for her and gave her the pill pocket
i told her good girl took the treat and put the yak milk bone away
simple as that
why would i want to get in a confrontation with my dog?
as to guarding beds and crap they have never done it because i have always been their leader
their boss
their alpha
whatever key phrase you wanna use
but if they did i would lure them off with a treat and then leash them from then on so i could pull them off without a physical confrontation

it is just not necessary for me to scruff or fling my dogs around or smack them to teach them i want i want them to do and what not to do

I also think resource guarding goes deeper than the outer meaning, as in your true relationship with your dog.
with this i agree
 
#133 ·
In the moment I would just open the door and tell the dog you're going for a walk. It worked plenty of times for me.

But seriously just take a stick or tennis racket and cover the item up. Last I checked it's hard to bark and bite without dropping the item.

The dog will fiercely guard when they are in possession of an item but the moment you remove them from that item their demeanor change. I've had dogs ready to rip my arm off but once I actually got the item in my hands the dog turned calm and was sitting nicely asking for the item. At least that's what happens in my experiences. If you get a dog that's barking and biting then you've already screwed up quite a bit.
 
#134 ·
And in fact, the thread isn't about taking something away from a dog that they shouldn't have at all, it's about a dog that's uncomfortable with people nearby when it has a valuable resource, hence the growling.
i got that too which is why i posted a training link

simba has it right
do what you have to do to get the item
if it is poisonous and it takes a bribe so be it

my son grabbed horrible resource guarders collar (not my dog nor his but a guests dog) and literally choked it off a package of grapes
dog was fine and the grapes were recovered
not necessarily something i would do but it worked because of the situation

you just do what the situation requires but then go back to basics and train train train

because
If you get a dog that's barking and biting then you've already screwed up quite a bit.
:thumbup:
 
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