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-   -   Muzzles & Bubbles - Aggressive Dogs in Public? (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/450865-muzzles-bubbles-aggressive-dogs-public.html)

Gwenhwyfair 05-16-2014 03:49 PM

Muzzles & Bubbles - Aggressive Dogs in Public?
 
In the other thread I started there's been some side bar discussions about dogs that bite or are very likely to bite, who really NEED this 'bubble' not being allowed in public, even with muzzles on.

IMO there's a 'bubble' which is just a personal space thing. None of us like to have a stranger just run up to us and put their face 1" away from our face. That's not just rude, it's also very threatening. I can see dogs having their 'personal space' needs BUT they aren't aggressive and more then likely would not bite even with such an invasion of space.

Then there's dogs that will, have and do bite. These would be dogs that "need" this bubble to prevent an accident.

So to start this off I'll quote an opinion from a dogblog (and yes, it's just another person's opinion so I'm not trying to make this out to be an authoritative statement in any way, just for discussion)

Quote:

Also as a note, dog aggressive dogs under control and with responsible management have just as much right to be out and about as the friendly neighborhood pal. Muzzles are frequently a responsible compromise, and proceeding to lecture on why the ‘vicious’ dog shouldn’t be out is frankly ridiculous and narrow minded. I don’t like being accosted by strangers and neither do my dogs. Respect the bubble.
<emphasis mine in blue>

I can't link to the article directly, it won't work so the link to the blog is below, the article in particular starts with the title "Your dog isn't being friendly..." 4th article down, under "Most Popular Posts" on right side of the home page.

I ran across this blog linked on a breeder's website yesterday and yes, unfortunately more bad language *sigh* Irreverent and cheeky...but it's the other side of the coin. For the record I'm on the fence on this regarding dogs with known aggression issues.

The Dog Snobs | We don't just know better; we are better

Gwenhwyfair 05-16-2014 04:08 PM

..and another question to pose to the folks here regarding dog aggression, or at least lack of tolerance.

I've now read a couple of articles (it's mentioned in the one above, 'herder overlords vs labs' which is kind of funny) and another article by a trainer mentioning that some breeds don't 'mesh' well.

I know there are plenty of labs and GSDs co-existing very peacefully in a 'pack', the problem seems to revolve around when they meet as strangers.

So given that some of this tension/aggression is genetic differences should GSDs be taught to accept overly goofy labs (for example) bouncing into their faces without any kind of reaction at all?

Mikelia 05-16-2014 04:17 PM

I think I have read all the articles you are referring to lol. I do not and will never expect any of my dogs to tolerate a goofy bouncing lab (or any breed) in their face. I expect them not to get overly aggressive, but I will stop the other dog before it becomes an issue.
I have had a few dog aggressive dogs in my lifetime and if I spend the amount of time and energy into training that dog to a very high level, the dog can pass a CGC and earn obedience titles (which my DA dogs all have been able to do) then there is no reason my well trained dog cannot go in to public places just because some people own ill-socialized, bouncy, idiot dogs that they cannot control. My dog will not go to your dog, can pass your dog on the street with no issue, just cannot greet other dogs. Which I don't allow even with dog friendly dogs. We don't meet and greet on leash. Just my two cents, I'm sure others feel differently.

sparra 05-16-2014 07:17 PM

Are you talking dog aggression or human aggression here.......the two are not the same.
In your quote above you failed to highlight that he was talking about dog aggressive dogs......in the other thread we were talking about dogs biting people......mostly......cause that is what the guy in your video was so annoyed about .......a dog that now has a bite history.:)

SuperG 05-16-2014 07:36 PM

" IMO there's a 'bubble' which is just a personal space thing."


"Personal space thing" is much larger than most would claim....especially walking a leashed dog or off leash as well.

The "vibe" that a human gives off is obvious to a dog in short order..so I believe.

I used to see other people walking dogs whose path I would cross and my mindset would change...anticipating the encounter and prepared for proper command and control....effectively.....I became uptight. This could happen 100-200 yards away....perhaps my "bubble" dramatically changed...??? Anyway, point being....being honest about when we all change gears is something to be considered as we telegraph the shift to our dogs.

Now, I hunt dogs down on walks to test the dog and my mindset...am I truly being calm and confident ??....no faking allowed....because the dog sees right through it......so far...the dog does better than I do...but I'm learning.

SuperG

gsdsar 05-16-2014 08:27 PM

I don't think there can be a blanket rule on this. I think all dogs have the right to take walks with their owners in their neighborhood.

If you have an aggressive dog, and the probability of a bite is high, use a muzzle.

I don't think a dog that has a probability if bite should go to large event where the ability to monitor the situation is diminished. So no, a DA or HA dog should NOT go to the PetExpo. You don't have the right to endanger other people, nor do you have the right to put your dog in a situation that causes so much stress that they are likely to strike out. But you do have the right to walk your dog in your neighborhood. If it's in a muzzle, then so be it.

Knowing your dog and their threshold is YOUR job as a owner. I know my dogs, know what they can handle. I never put them in a situation that I can't control or can't be sure of their reaction. Do I use some situations as a training tool? Yes. For example. My young boy gets wide eyed with kids. Has never done anything but chuff at them, but I need to get him used to them. So I take him to a kid park. I make sure to keep moving, we heel sit, play, make it clear we are training. If I get approached, I don't allow interaction. He is not ready. This park has maybe 5-8 kids and parents. I talk with the parents, explain what I am doing. They gave been great. Would I go to Busch Gardens?? Um no. I have to be sure that I can control and monitor the situation. I can't do that with very large crowds.


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Chip18 05-16-2014 09:03 PM

Well as a "pet "person" and "former "bubble dog" with HA "issues" I took my Bubble guy out in public. Yes you have to use some common sense and no we did no go to "World Fair " type events.

I did Leerburgh "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" I used a fabric muzzle on him for a bit until I understood him better and taught him what I "expected from him!."

He got the message, I dropped the muzzle, when I could read him better and I "always" kept people out of his face! I did not want a dog with a bite history and "apparently" I did not need to use a lot of words to make it pretty clear...that "Rocky" was not on public display!

During muzzle phase I allowed a child to pet him Black/muzzle,Black Dog pretty much the "muzzle" is invisible. By then a couple weeks, Rocky had no problem with 'strangers" he looked to "dad"for direction! I did let a child pet him (while muzzled) because he now knew what I expected from him.The mom finally noticed the muzzle and freaked!

But during his bubble phase unless he was in fact muzzled sorry but "no one" was getting to him! They would have had to get by me first,and it was not going to happen, period end of story!

I will add same deal other dogs. Zero dog intros 'move alone dog nothing to see here! Today little dogs can Bark, Bark, Bark in his face till they turn blue! (Behind a face I was speaking with their owner) They get "Zero" response from him finally they just shut up! :)

Pretty much as simple as that for me. :)

selzer 05-16-2014 09:09 PM

I don't think dogs have rights. Well, other than the right to be protected by anti-cruelty laws. Dog owners have some rights. But as for walking an aggressive dog in the neighborhood, it really depends on the owner's ability to manage the dog. If the dog bites someone, then, the courts will determine whether the person may keep their dog alive, and whether there are any constraints on the dog, like, a muzzle when in public.

Should people believe when they see a halti collar or a muzzle (I know very different) that the dog is vicious? No, but people will believe what they want to believe, so some people will give it the stink eye. Like they give the stink eye to k9s, and to dogs in prong collars, or to the people that are using the correction collars, flexi-leads, flexi-leads with correction collars, and the whole nine yards. You cannot stop people from thinking the worst sometimes.

As long as the breed is not banned, and the neighborhood is not a gated community with a home-owner's association that bans the breed, then dogs should be able to be walked in the neighborhood, unless and until they bite someone. lf they do bite, and a bite report is filled out, then I think that animal control, as one of its functions, should be over there discussing with the owner, why the bite happened and what has to happen to ensure that it does not happen again. If that means muzzles, and training classes, and weekly visits to the doggy-psychologist for dog and owner, than that is what had better happen. Once a dog bites a person, its owner has displayed an inability/failure to manage the dog. At that point, the neighborhood deserves a plan for that dog that will prevent it happening again.

If you read through the list of dog's killing people, many, no, the majority of them have a history of aggression towards people. If someone someone, the dog warden, took a trip over to the home, and explained that to keep this dog you MUST do A, B, C. To walk this dog public, you will need... Dogs are not all the same, the dog needs to be assessed and a recommendation should be made to the court based on the assessment, and then the court should set down the requirements for the dog, and the owner, if in violation of these, needs to have clear consequences spelled out to them.

All of us dog owners are affected, directly and indirectly, by people who allow their animals to bite people. We need to push back somehow.

We can reminisce about how in the good old days, if we got bitten by a dog, our parents asked us what we did. That worked back then. It won't nowadays. I wish people would not equate responsible dog ownership with nicking the dogs' nads, and equate it with training, maintaining, and managing the dog properly.

Gwenhwyfair 05-16-2014 09:24 PM

Either Sparra. Though human aggression would be a more serious problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparra (Post 5527105)
Are you talking dog aggression or human aggression here.......the two are not the same.
In your quote above you failed to highlight that he was talking about dog aggressive dogs......in the other thread we were talking about dogs biting people......mostly......cause that is what the guy in your video was so annoyed about .......a dog that now has a bite history.:)


Chip18 05-16-2014 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by selzer (Post 5527441)
I don't think dogs have rights. Well, other than the right to be protected by anti-cruelty laws. Dog owners have some rights. But as for walking an aggressive dog in the neighborhood, it really depends on the owner's ability to manage the dog. If the dog bites someone, then, the courts will determine whether the person may keep their dog alive, and whether there are any constraints on the dog, like, a muzzle when in public.

Should people believe when they see a halti collar or a muzzle (I know very different) that the dog is vicious? No, but people will believe what they want to believe, so some people will give it the stink eye. Like they give the stink eye to k9s, and to dogs in prong collars, or to the people that are using the correction collars, flexi-leads, flexi-leads with correction collars, and the whole nine yards. You cannot stop people from thinking the worst sometimes.

As long as the breed is not banned, and the neighborhood is not a gated community with a home-owner's association that bans the breed, then dogs should be able to be walked in the neighborhood, unless and until they bite someone. lf they do bite, and a bite report is filled out, then I think that animal control, as one of its functions, should be over there discussing with the owner, why the bite happened and what has to happen to ensure that it does not happen again. If that means muzzles, and training classes, and weekly visits to the doggy-psychologist for dog and owner, than that is what had better happen. Once a dog bites a person, its owner has displayed an inability/failure to manage the dog. At that point, the neighborhood deserves a plan for that dog that will prevent it happening again.

If you read through the list of dog's killing people, many, no, the majority of them have a history of aggression towards people. If someone someone, the dog warden, took a trip over to the home, and explained that to keep this dog you MUST do A, B, C. To walk this dog public, you will need... Dogs are not all the same, the dog needs to be assessed and a recommendation should be made to the court based on the assessment, and then the court should set down the requirements for the dog, and the owner, if in violation of these, needs to have clear consequences spelled out to them.

All of us dog owners are affected, directly and indirectly, by people who allow their animals to bite people. We need to push back somehow.

We can reminisce about how in the good old days, if we got bitten by a dog, our parents asked us what we did. That worked back then. It won't nowadays. I wish people would not equate responsible dog ownership with nicking the dogs' nads, and equate it with training, maintaining, and managing the dog properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhwyfair (Post 5527537)
Either Sparra. Though human aggression would be a more serious problem.

Pretty much no disagreement here! Some people should only have Gold Fish for pets! :)


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