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Vet pins/grabs muzzle & 13wk puppy bites at hand

13K views 90 replies 35 participants last post by  Lauri & The Gang 
#1 ·
Let me start off by saying that I have not seen any behavior in my 13 week male that looks anything like aggression. He is a puppy. He was very, very mouthy, which I expected as he comes from german Schutzhund champion working lines on his fathers side. If I even said that right, I'm new so forgive me if not. Anyway, his mouthiness has improved amazingly. He will make mouth contact is if he is on his side, back, or someone grabs over his head at his collar. However, he listens with a stern "no bite." And these are not blood drawing, hard bites. Sometimes there is no pressure applied at all. He is in a puppy class, loves people, greets all people and dogs with tail wagging, and I've never heard so much as a growl.

So FF to today, at his second vet check up. The vet and tech forced him to his side and held him down while trying to palpate his groin. He starting whining and struggling to get up. He was biting the vet tech's hand. She then grabbed his muzzle and squeezed it shut, at which point he became frantic and whining and wanting up even more. I told her not to grab his muzzle. So she gave treats instead, he calmed slightly and by then they were done. I then was questioned about whether I can take his food away, put my hand in his bowl, etc. Yes. I can. My 18 month old does it almost everyday. He could care less. The vet tech proceeded to tell me that this is an aggressive breed and I need to get him in classes (he already is in classes) and that I should be aware that they are aggresive because I have small children. Let's just say my BP was through the roof.

Is his reaction aggressive? I've been working on touching him all over etc. He does fine usually and is getting better all the time. Not sure what I should be doing differently, if anything.
 
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#2 ·
I've switched vets for a whole lot less.

You are doing everything just fine - totally normal reaction for that sort of opposition at that age without counter conditioning. I would find a new vet asap.
 
#16 · (Edited)
this, find a new Vet, and if its about to happen again at another vet put a stop to it immediately

also when my guys were small, I did the holding while the Vet did their thing
 
#3 ·
Wow, that's ridiculous. But I've read that before, so I know it happens. I chose my vet in particular because he has GSDs. I wasn't having a terrible problem with the other vets in the past - just that hearing about how GSDs were in general ("But I like yours") was getting on my nerves, lol.
Sorry you and your puppy had to go through that.
 
#6 ·
He sounds like a fine workingline puppy! I notice you said the vet TECH rolled your puppy and gave you this rant . Vet techs are not all created equal - the run the gambit between no more than a person who wants to work with dogs to having certifications and qualifications I would compare to a RN or nurse practitioner in the human world.

If you like the vet, keep the vet, insist on a different tech.

I have a very confident east german male. When he was a pup, there was one vet tech who cut his nails too short and made him bleed (from several nails), the vet was excellent. He was a past president of AAHA, very knowledgable but he only ever had one good vet tech plus his wife.

Then Dr C retired and we had to find a new vet. The new vets office had one vet I liked but she wasn't always there, the other vets would muzzle Otto because he'd grumble about them looking at his ears. He was prone to ear infections when he was younger, plus the nail cutting thing, it became a game with him to intimidate the vet. Great, now you can't hear his heart rate because you've freaked him out with the muzzle. Same office told me Morgan's burst anal gland was probably cancer so pay for this expensive test. Same office made my friend muzzle his rottie because of the breed...

We switched after about a year of that insanity. I still board there because they have a great huge facility that used to be a car dealership - while they can attract great people and keep them in the boarding area, the vets are horrible and they're crazy expensive. Love my new vet, she breeds GSDs so she looks at Otto, calls him a beast and he leans on her for exam like he's saying 'you get me, you may touch me'
 
#7 ·
This vet is an idiot.

And do not take away his bowl and put your hand in there to take food. You got lucky on your first one. This is a great way to CAUSE food aggression.

If you give it to him, it's his. If you want to avoid food aggression, do things like trade up, toss treats into his bowl, feed by hand.
 
#8 ·
Find another Vet! That is horrible treatment, especially for a puppy. The only reason your pup may get aggressive is if it keeps getting treated poorly at the vet.

We also have 6 cats and whenever we bring a cat to the vet, Molly wants to come - she gets very worried. So the vet tolerates Molly and the cat in the exam room together, she always has a nice greeting for Molly and said that Molly's behavior has improved so much just allowing her to come in as "support" for the cats. Hope you find a vet practice that has more positive practices.
 
#9 · (Edited)
The advice wasn't accurate, but nothing the vet tech did was wrong IMO...

Sorry, if the puppy is biting the hand, its not that out of the question for her to just hold the mouth shut while she finishes her exam.

SunCzarina...the vet TECH did not ROLL the puppy. The vet tech had the puppy on its side already while examining the stomach...there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If it were me, I would've been holding my dog to help the vet tech and probably in that situation would've just stuck my own hand in the dog's mouth in order to not cause any harm to the vet tech. When my boy was a puppy, the tummy exams took less than a minute...its not a bad thing for your dog to learn that it has to accept people touching it in certain places. If you wanted it to be a training exercise and are worried about the fact that the vet tech "forced" the dog on its side, you should do it all yourself. I've never been around a single vet or vet tech that wasn't more than happy to allow the owner to help with the handling of the animal or down and roll over (with a command) themselves.

But, we could just give the advice to not allow anyone to touch your dog so that when it gets bigger you need a muzzle because your dog doesn't like people touching it. Then you'll come on the forum and get ripped apart for not teaching this to your dog and socializing the dog properly when it was younger.

To call a 13 week old a problem, and insinuate that you'll have issues because you have children is weird. But the GSD is an aggressive breed, they can be problems, and many vets usually see the dogs that aren't trained properly. I remember how my vet was surprised to feel the fact that my dog still had testicles because he was so "calm" and "listened well" while we were in the exam room. I can just imagine what kinds of dogs he has to deal with on a daily basis and so of course they're going to develop certain prejudices.

I know this forum also likes to tell people to ditch vets when they advise them to neuter at 6 months...so if we're just going to advise people to leave vets because of their opinions, I guess this situation calls for the same advice.
 
#11 ·
The advice wasn't accurate, but nothing the vet tech did was wrong IMO...

Sorry, if the puppy is biting the hand, its not that out of the question for her to just hold the mouth shut while she finishes her exam.

SunCzarina...the vet TECH did not ROLL the puppy. The vet tech had the puppy on its side already while examining the stomach...there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If it were me, I would've been holding my dog to help the vet tech and probably in that situation would've just stuck my own hand in the dog's mouth in order to not cause any harm to the vet tech. When my boy was a puppy, the tummy exams took less than a minute...its not a bad thing for your dog to learn that it has to accept people touching it in certain places. If you wanted it to be a training exercise and are worried about the fact that the vet tech "forced" the dog on its side, you should do it all yourself. I've never been around a single vet or vet tech that wasn't more than happy to allow the owner to help with the handling of the animal or down and roll over (with a command) themselves.

But, we could just give the advice to not allow anyone to touch your dog so that when it gets bigger you need a muzzle because your dog doesn't like people touching it. Then you'll come on the forum and get ripped apart for not teaching this to your dog and socializing the dog properly when it was younger.

To call a 13 week old a problem, and insinuate that you'll have issues because you have children is weird. But the GSD is an aggressive breed, they can be problems, and many vets usually see the dogs that aren't trained properly. I remember how my vet was surprised to feel the fact that my dog still had testicles because he was so "calm" and "listened well" while we were in the exam room. I can just imagine what kinds of dogs he has to deal with on a daily basis and so of course they're going to develop certain prejudices.

I know this forum also likes to tell people to ditch vets when they advise them to neuter at 6 months...so if we're just going to advise people to leave vets because of their opinions, I guess this situation calls for the same advice.
Yes, it is out of the question. I've never handled a puppy like this or let mine get handled like this. I have always supplied treats while working in shelters, and my vets use treats to keep my dogs still if I cannot assist, as well.

No one is saying they shouldn't be touching the dog, you're making mountains out of molehills. We're saying they don't need to handle a puppy that way to get accomplished what they need, and this could do damage to the socialization of the dog. At least if no one touched the dog it wouldn't be afraid. ;)
 
#10 ·
It was the tech handling your puppy and telling you he'll be aggressive? If so, I might agree with the advice that says keep the vet (if you like him/her) but request a different tech. But I'd also be questioning whether the vet agreed with the tech, since it seems they didn't object to what the tech was doing. The tech handling your puppy like that is a great way to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy that he'll become aggressive.

And do not take away his bowl and put your hand in there to take food. You got lucky on your first one. This is a great way to CAUSE food aggression.
I agree with this also. Simply messing with your puppy's food and bowl while he is eating is almost guaranteed to cause food aggression. Much better to give him treats while he is eating, or in exchange for taking the bowl. This way he sees you as bringing good things while he eats, not just pestering him.
 
#12 ·
I have never seen a vet or tech put a dog on its side to examine, they do it while they are standing. They might put there hand gently around muzzle if the dog is panting. That would be acceptable, squeezing the muzzle is not. In the pups defense he had no where to go and what they did was make him feel pinned. Get another vet.
 
#14 ·
Martemchik, if you routinely hold your own puppy's mouth shut for biting, then it wouldn't be a problem for you - since your puppy would know that this is what happens in response to a bite. But since OP isn't doing this, why should the puppy be forced to tolerate it from a stranger? That's not right, IMO. The good thing is that when OP voiced concerns, a different approach was taken. I'd still not want to deal with people giving lectures about the breed, from their biased viewpoint. Sorry, my money supports those that I think deserve it.
 
#17 ·
The vet and tech forced him to his side and held him down while trying to palpate his groin. He starting whining and struggling to get up. He was biting the vet tech's hand. She then grabbed his muzzle and squeezed it shut, at which point he became frantic and whining and wanting up even more
And that is where I would have walked out.

Do yourself a favor and find out where your local police force takes the K9s.
You need vets and especially techs who know GSDs.
 
#18 ·
I'd be a little annoyed that the tech grabbed the muzzle and made my dog restless, but then again for every procedure done to my dog that requires some sort of restraint I make sure it's me that is the person near the face holding my dog. I've held her still for everything she's needed done

I'd just ask for a different tech because they don't know what they are talking about with the breed very much.

In the future I'd restrain your dog for them though
 
#19 · (Edited)
Its weird that I went through the same thing at our second vet check. I was told by the vet who I now realise is a nincompoop, had no idea how to handle and is scared of dogs, that my dog is going to be aggressive. And he would need to be muzzled for his vet visits. I found a female vet who owns a GSD herself a half hour away. By then ours was 7 months old and MUCH bigger. He was like putty in her hands. When I told her what had happened with our previous vet she scoffed at it.


I think perhaps all their warnings to you are because they usually do not see owners who invest in training their dogs. AND in general, they are afraid of the bigger protective breeds.
 
#25 ·
Its weird that I went through the same thing at our second vet check. I was told by the vet who I now realise is a nincompoop, had no idea how to handle and is scared of dogs, that my dog is going to be aggressive. And he would need to be muzzled for his vet visits.
Had similar happen with one of my mix puppies. I walked out of that office and never went back. I still tell people to stay away from there. You don't tell me a 5 month old baby is aggressive and needs to be muzzled. If he was being aggressive it was because they were scaring the crap out of him and they were doing something I specifically told them not to do. (he was very head shy and scared and they were trying to drag him with one of those choke sticks :angryfire:

BTW he loves my regular vet and has never given her a problem.
 
#20 ·
All of the vets I've used have commented on how GSD's have poor nerves, are fear biters and usually expect that whenever they see the breed.
I have one that is highly aggressive with the vetting procedures so I muzzle her. I don't let the techs handle my dogs, I do it myself while they do their blood draws or vaccines.

With a baby puppy, the vet should be making the experience as positive as possible. What was the reason for the groin exam? Are both testicles down or is there one missing?
 
#23 ·
Ugh. Switch vets. I had a similar experience. My dutchie first greeted my old vet by biting his shoe laces... he was not impressed (10 weeks old!!!!). Then he gave me a lecture about the aggressive dominant breed yadayada. It wouldn't have been so bad but this vet has known me for a couple of years and he was just not listening to me. I switched to a local vet that raises huskies. She is great.

Good luck.
 
#26 ·
Most vets will not allow an owner to restrain their own animal. If you get bit, the Vet is liable.


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#27 · (Edited)
Some dogs can't be or should not be given treats, EPI dogs, dogs that are slated for some type of surgery. You cannot always shove treats in a dog's mouth. I have never once went armed with treats into a vet's office. Never.

Sometimes when a vet or tech had to do something painful or scary, after it was done, I asked them to give the dog a treat.

This happened today, and why I am bringing it up -- not treats though, she didn't need them. The bitch is full grown and not a puppy, in fact we were looking for a possibly retained puppy, while her puppies were left in the exam room, I went with them to the x-ray room, and I got her up on the x-ray table.

Then I told her to down, which she did, and I said stay. The techs then took over, and they had to put the 81 pound Jenna onto her side. One hugged her head to hold her down on her side, while the other managed the back legs. I had to duck out so they could click the x-ray, then I came back in and took over my dog.

You cannot always be the one to manage your dog. They should handle handling. I suppose that dog owner's with Blitzkrieg's philosophy would have had to muzzle their bitch for this procedure. A muzzle might have made the dog even more nervous or irritated at the handling by the vet techs -- strangers. And made the x-ray impossible without sedation.

Sedating a lactating bitch is simply not a good idea.

I think that we should not crucify vets and vet techs if they have had some negative experiences with our breed when the owners expect them to freak out at vets, and not allow handling.

Putting a puppy on its side might make a dominant puppy antsy. Holding it down will make it more antsy. I might have handled this situation differently. I probably would have put the puppy up on the table, and then put it on its side where all the people were less awkward, less hunching over the dog. When the vet looks for testicles on my puppies, I always hand them to them on the table.

There are plenty of great reasons out there to switch vets. If you switch vets every time someone says boo to your dog wrong, or tells you your Pootsy Poo could stand to loose a couple, you will run out of vets. And maybe when it is really important for a vet to see you and the dog, and maybe a dog he has seen when the dog was acting normally, you won't have that benefit because you got all worked up about minor things.

It is not a bad idea to let your GSD get used to handling by a variety of people. Because some day, someone might need to put your dog on its side and perform some sort of delicate whatever, like had to happen to my dog today.
 
#29 ·
I always restrain my own dog too. Especially working dogs that get more than their share of pokes and jabs. They can learn to hate the vet.

I don't expect a dog trained to protect itself to automatically accept vet handling based on nerves alone. Some can be trained, but I don't think it's an indicator of nerve if a working dog is vet aggressive. I have seen quite the opposite.

JMHO


David Winners
 
#31 ·
I don't expect a dog trained to protect itself to automatically accept vet handling based on nerves alone. Some can be trained, but I don't think it's an indicator of nerve if a working dog is vet aggressive. I have seen quite the opposite.
I agree, my male has great nerves, but he surely isn't into invasions of his personal space by someone he doesn't know.
 
#32 ·
Fama laid a vet flat out on her back with a muzzle punch to the chest. The vet said to let her go. I should have known better. No nerve issues involved, just bad attitude.

David Winners
 
#34 ·
Skadi did great at her last vet appointment, but we muzzled her for the temperature taking because the last time we took her the vet tech wasn't as skilled and cornered her. She growled. This vet was very skilled so despite the muzzle she didn't growl, just cried a little. We always hold her head.
 
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